I’m happy with the fragmentation.  I wasn’t at the start of this
conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it.  I agree that the
goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving those
goals is easier.  We are building some new stuff and it seems that selecting
the right fork for the right job “may” not have been possible without the
split.  There are a number of new developments coming, (in the VM, Spoon,
Seaside, Cuis, EToys, 
) and it’s possible that one big monolithic Squeak
may have made it more difficult for all.  It seems that we are closer to
having split up the components then we had thought.  

 

I know we cannot make everyone happy.  It seems that the starting point
which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything else.
Let me know if you think that is wrong.  If that is true then building
Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like something that
might help bring the communities back together.  Will Github or SmalltalkHub
help to accomplish this?  If this were a goal would either do more than the
other?  

 

I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have it work
and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed such so that
it will load in any fork.  Not all packages will load in every fork so
knowing which will work beforehand is preferable.  VW is different since
nobody expects that with some work it will run on Oinq, I mean Cog (my name
for the vm didn’t stick).  

 

It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter.  There seems to be some
movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub.  Sometimes movement is
preferable to good ideas.  If Metacello works for Squeak and will work with
SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a boost?  If
Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?

 

Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some similar
tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the entire
Smalltalk community.

 

All the best,

 

Ron Teitelbaum

Head Of Engineering

3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting

ron at 3dicc.com

Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum> 

www.3dicc.com <http://www.3dicc.com/>  

3d ICC on G+
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/p
osts> 

 

 

From: squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Juan
Vuletich (mail lists)
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM
To: dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..

 

Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of
objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see
http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html .

Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used to
that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe you can
help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.

Cheers,

Juan Vuletich

Quoting dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>:

Thank you.  I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How compatible is
Cuis to Squeak ? 

 

By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk (pharo) project
which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a backup plan.

I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit pull rm add
.

 

I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a beginner,
there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is Cuis, etc etc

Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some people this
kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally try find ways to make
things work together.  

 

But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on Squeak too.
I love smalltalk I wish I had discovered it earlier. But better late than
never I guess :D

 


  _____  


From: Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <juanlists at jvuletich.org>
To: dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>; The general-purpose Squeak
developers list <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org> 
Sent: Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..

 

Hi Dimitris,

With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages. We use git
as it is intended to be used. This means that we let git handle file
versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line terminator. This means that
git can diff and merge Cuis packages. For example see 

https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304
b5115c1d .

Cheers,

Juan Vuletich

 

Quoting dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>:

SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will be dead. 

 

I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I was a python
developer. 

And I love squeak too.

 

I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved by smalltalk.


 

Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of ruby and python
projects, js and many more.

 

I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense intended but
definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer. 

 

I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies, but is hard to
abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects and support the smalltalk
solutions instead. 

 

I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its hard to
compete with products that are designed full time by big teams and matured
through thousands of use cases. 

 

My vote goes to Github. 

 


  _____  


From: Göran Krampe <goran at krampe.se>
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org> 
Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..


Hi folks!

As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays both Squeaker
and Pharooner) and also involved in some other related projects
(SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of some interest.

First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but we have both
historic and technical differences at play. Some things worth noting:

- SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package *catalog*. It is not
a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from the very beginning.

- Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but when
Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it would deminish
SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over" several "catalog" aspects. I
was right unfortunately, but at the same time SS was great and has served us
very well in its own right.

- Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't have that
amount of free time anymore.

- SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.

- Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these days for SCM and
package loading. Metacello took the whole dependencies/tagging/releases
issue and simply rode on MC to solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex
but it's mostly some line noise - it is not that complicated.

- This also means that for a very, very long time package management and
source code management will be forever "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world.
Personally I say - fine! Again, let's just embrace it and go.

- The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just code" and can
offer functionality totally independent of the hosting platform for MC. So
it doesn't matter if you load a Metacello configuration from a website, from
SS or SS3 or Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!

- Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I haven't tried,
but I presume Metacello works or is very close to working?

- Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice system AND
there is also an image side client tool brewing for it! This means the
equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader will be easy to build in Squeak
for Smalltalkhub.


So my advice would be:

1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we get ready to
ditch it. Really.

2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and Metacello for Squeak.
Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello even if it does look a bit complex to
begin with. There are lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to
just copy from. I have written two configurations these last two days and
"the shit works". Good work Dale! :)

3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it work fine for Squeak,
note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not Pharohub! Don't set up your own
unless for some odd reason Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns
it into "Pharohub".

Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid architecture,
really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish features and bloody hell, I
mean, it can show diffs right there in the browser!

Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding fun is rated
A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better, better. I think it should be
seen as a unifying playground and Metacello as the "glue" that makes it
possible to have projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many
functions for EXACTLY that.

Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the Squeak community
should do so too. If the Squeak community can ride a bit on the momentum in
Pharo - there is really no reason not to.

regards, Göran




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