Inline and heavily abridged. 

On May 3, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3 May 2013 23:08, Casey Ransberger <casey.obrien.r at gmail.com> wrote:
>> BIG SNIP
>> 
>> It's been proven at this point that we actually *can* use revision control, as long as we deal with our unusual object persistence issues like most people deal with database updates. Because we're a language, an environment, *and* a low-rent object database.
> 
> That is a crucial insight, and one I've been trying to come to terms
> with. The trunk model is _precisely_ like a database migration. And
> that shouldn't be surprising, actually: it's a big bucket of state,
> just like any other database.

I think you're right. At first I didn't understand the problem. I think (forgive me if I'm wrong) that it was Dale Henrichs who first said (when I was arguing for mainstream SCM) "there is an impedance mismatch" and that was a revelation, if not a solution. But it got me thinking about a solution. It's kind of half implemented, and I've been treating the code as an unwanted child. 

We have to treat both structure and state differently than we treat behavior. We already do that, but I suspect that object-soup tastes so good sometimes that we ignore things we already know from working with other languages. 

You can't roll out a database migration in the same way you roll out a code update. Sometimes code is also data, but most people won't recognize that. As such, the rest of the world (meaning: not hard-core enough to appreciate the punk-rock guitar stylings of folks like John McCarthy and Alan Kay, et al.) treats them as completely different. 

I think in this case, studying the behavior of the masses and really understanding it might give us as a community new insights toward a better outcome.

We need, in my humblest opinion, to just put on our anthropology hats and really understand a) why b) how c) what the monkeys in the other tribes are doing to deal with having heavily stateful systems. 

Okay now I'm done ranting. Love wins? :D

>> BIG SNIP
>