On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>wrote:

> Giving this thread a proper subject (and one further comment below).
>
> On 2013-05-24, at 11:43, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> wrote:
>
> On 2013-05-23, at 21:35, Chris Muller <asqueaker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Bert, could you please explain why you want this?
> >
> > Cmd-0 is supposed to make something into plain text. Colored text is not
> plain text.
>
> Look at the consecutive key-sequence across the top-row of the keyboard.
>  In order from left-to-right we have:
>
>   Command+7 = Bold, no color change
>   Command+8 = Italicize, no color change
>   Command+9 = Kern, no color change
>   Command+0 = Normalize, PLUS a color change!
>   Command+_ = Underline, no color change
>   Command+= = Strikeout, no color change.
>
>
> Now you're being ridiculous:
>
> Command+6 = Color, no underline change
> Command+7 = Bold, no underline change
> Command+8 = Italicize, no underline change
> Command+9 = Kern, no underline change
> Command+0 = Normalize, *PLUS* an *underline* change!
> Command+_ = Underline change
> Command+= = Strikeout, no underline change
>
> Outrageous ;)
>
>
Your list is not analogous to mine.

I do indeed regard color as a *more-general* form of emphasis than italics.
 Any kind of informational object such as a line or chart can have color,
but only Text can be italicized, underlined or struckout.  Previously, all
of Cmd+7 thru Cmd+= only affected Text-specific emphasis.  Now, one of them
also changes color.

I think Command+6 should be the universal, one-stop, "Text Colorization" /
> "Decolorization" function and leave the rest of it elegantly consistent by
> operating solely on emphasis attributes.
>
> The new Cmd+0 affects the gesture-usage of the system too.  Before, all
> combinations of going *from* any *format+color* *to* any another other *
> format+color* utilized a consistent sequence of gestures.  Now, we have
> an exceptional case for removing emphasis from colored text (e.g., going
> from Bold+Red to Normal+Red).
>
>
> You seem to think of color as something special. I don't. It's just
> another way to make text fancy, instead of plain. Cmd-0 is intended to make
> text plain.
>
> *Question*:  How will users keep the same custom-color when all they want
> to do is remove an underline?
>
>
> Just like you do it in all other text editors: toggle underlining on and
> off: hit "Cmd _" twice.
>
> For some reason, I thought the toggling was broken -- that Cmd+7 would
only *add* bold, not remove it.    I just tried it again and, it worked.
 So, the situation is not as bad as I thought.

Still, the idempotent property of setting emphasis is now broken for
colored text.  Not a huge deal, but still a downgrade.


>
> This use-case is now very difficult for the user if not impossible.
>
>
> Huh?
>
>
> >> It's already so easy to switch text color to black:   Command+6 + Enter.
> >
> > Sure, but I don't normally want to set the text to black. I want to make
> it plain.
>
> Ok, how about adding "default color" to the Alt+6 menu then?  Or, how
> about an alternate key-sequence for "Normalize + Decolorize"?
>  Shift+Command+0 is available!  This would be perfect compromise.
>
>
> No. A more special operation should have a more complicated shortcut.
> "Remove all embellishments" is more general than "remove all embellishments
> but preserve colorization", so if you really need that special mode, that
> could be your new shortcut.
>
>
I can see the root of our disagreement lies in our regard whether color is
an equal-footing embellishment as the text-specific embellishments
(italics/underline/strikeout/bold) on the hot-keys.  At least I
*understand*your POV now, I'm glad it's slightly less ridiculous than
I thought.  :)


> >> Isn't that easy enough without making it impossible for folks writing
> >> documents in Squeak that contain colored text?
> >
> > Don't use Cmd-0 if you want to use text containing different colors.
> It's *supposed* to make the whole selection look uniform.
>
> But what *do* I use now if want to maintain different colors but just
> want to remove *emphasis*?  To do that before, it was the same consistent
> gesture-sequence as anything else.  Command+0, Command+6, Enter.  Done.
>  Now that's broken, especially for custom-colors.
>
>
> But then you would need many more command sequences:
>
> a) remove all text attributes except color
> b) remove all text attributes except underlines/strikethrough
> c) remove all text attributes except bold/italic
> ... etc ...
>
> I don't get this, but, whatever..

>
> This is obviously ridiculous. I just don't see why you think text color is
> so special that it needs to be treated completely differently than all the
> other text attributes.
>
>
> > For a differently-colored background plain text should be displayed in
> color possibly different from black, I agree. But that color should *not*
> be encoded in the text itself, it should be a property of its display
> container, the one providing the background color.
>
> I'm on-board with having a "nil" color as a text that causes it to render
> in whatever it's container says it should and having a gesture to set it
> such.  Glad we agree about that.
>
> Would you please compromise with me -- it seems the shift key is used as
> an "enhanced" version of several hot-key functions throughout the system,
> and so Shift+Command+0 to inject the decolorization and leaving original
> Command+0 to remain consistent with [7] thru [=] to only remove emphasis,
> seems ideal, what do you think?
>
>
> As I tried to explained above the only consistent way is for CMD-0 to
> remove all these text attribute. You're welcome to add
> "remove-all-but-color" as a special operation. I have *never* needed that,
> but I always was annoyed when I wanted to remove style, e.g. because a
> class comment was saved as all-red.
>
> Again, if you want to modify color, then invoke the color-modifying
operation (Cmd+6), not an emphasis-modifying operation.  The comment might
have had something *underlined* and so you just blew that away when all you
said you wanted to do was remove the red.


> Seriously, I don't even understand how you could think this is
> controversial. Removing all text attributes *obviously* should remove text
> colors.
>
>
Since the toggling works afterall, it's not controversial, but a downgrade
because I see Cmd-0 now as inconsistent treatment of the text compared to
the other emphases operations.


> Also, Chris, please read the command-key help, which explicitly states
> that Cmd-0 is intended to reset all Cmd-6 properties. I merely fixed a bug.
> It is unfortunate that you learned to rely on the buggy behavior. But I'm
> sure you're a great learner :)
>

I had already read it and determined that's where the "fix" should have
been applied rather than in the behavior.  Our decisions as a community are
based on current, logical discussions like this one to determine which is
wrong, not old documentation.

 - Chris
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