:)  Sorry, not very serious but still:

"Newspeak is a new programming language *in the tradition of Self and
Smalltalk*" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/]
"Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk-inspired environment*"
[http://www.pharo-project.org/home]

Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only
"Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired?
According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then
Pharo :)

And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to
say... But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and
concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later
the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise
their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for
benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community.



--

Best regards,


Dennis Schetinin


2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com>:

>
>
>
> On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran at krampe.se> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
>>>
>>> Cross-posting continues...
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
>>>
>>>> I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
>>>
>>>  I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
>>>> *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is
>>>>
>>>> sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a
>>>> different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be
>>>> inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even
>>> share the VM!
>>>
>>> And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us
>>> Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through
>>> Newspeakish money, right?
>>>
>>
>> Yes.  I've worked for Cadence twice.  Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first
>> worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability.  Form there, now
>> familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog.  I'm now back
>> at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog.  In particular, Spur has
>> only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai.  At Cadence
>> we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration.  Without
>> Newspeak there would be no Spur.  WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be
>> nearly as developed or reliable.
>>
>> I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will
>> consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family.  It is definitely a
>> blood relative.  Don't treat it like a black sheep.
>>
>>
>
> I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not
> (clearly it is).
> The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.
> (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).
> So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run
> and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk
> projects under ESUG umbrella?
>
> If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors,
> who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> [SNIP]
>>>
>>>  I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
>>>> recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have
>>>> done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community
>>>> (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Cool!
>>>
>>> The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming
>>> all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities
>>> (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
>>>
>>> This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants
>>> have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also
>>> shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can
>>> really... make a mess :)
>>>
>>> 3 timesRepeat: [
>>>         If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders]
>>>
>>> regards, Göran
>>>
>>> PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest
>>> his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move
>>> on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to
>>> hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
>>
>>
>> Amen!
>> Eliot
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> Esug-list at lists.esug.org
>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>
>
>
>
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