On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <goran at krampe.se> wrote:

> Hi Igor and all!
>
> On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> [SNIP]
>
>          Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell,
>>         we even share the VM!
>>
>>         And I am not sure people understand how important this has been
>>         for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has
>>         been done through Newspeakish money, right?
>>
>>
>>     Yes.  I've worked for Cadence twice.  Once in 2007 to 2008 where I
>>     first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability.  Form
>>     there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create
>>     Cog.  I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog.
>>       In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at
>>     Cadence, Yaron Kashai.  At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement
>>     systems for SoaC integration.  Without Newspeak there would be no
>>     Spur.  WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed
>>     or reliable.
>>
>>     I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community
>>     will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family.  It is
>>     definitely a blood relative.  Don't treat it like a black sheep.
>>
>>
>> I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not
>> (clearly it is).
>> The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.
>> (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).
>> So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run
>> and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk
>> projects under ESUG umbrella?
>>
>
> Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular
> incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make
> that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a
> family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO.
>
> Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" -
> hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and
> make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk!
>
> And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have
> globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"?
>
> And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak
> - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger
> than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a
> Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which
> claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit!
>
> Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just
> getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)
>
>
Nothing philosophical here.
Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new
language.
Different syntax, different semantics.
The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any
difference.
There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms.
Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run
under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?

And let me be clear: i am not against Newspeak or any other language or
person(s) who invested a lot into it and keep investing. They are doing
good things in exploring and pushing forward original ideas and enriching
our computing world.
But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line.

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
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