Chris Muller-3 wrote
> -1.  No ghost grabbing please.  Squeak is not Windows 10.  Window
> contents don't overlap with the grips.  The close-box is not
> "content".
> 
> Changing the mouse to resize shape when one is adjacent to the resizer
> just plain looks like a bug.  The environment should have a
> "physicality" to it that users can relate to.  No one clicks *next* to
> something to grab it.
> 
> Why does Microsoft continue to pursue such insanity?  Too much
> overdesign zeal?  The big tablet dumb-down?   They turn one UI feature
> into a problem, and then they gotta "solve" it, by introducing another
> problem...  Like what happened with those disasterous "auto maximize"
> features in Windows 8 / Ubuntu Unity.  The same was already available
> by clicking maximize and then sizing the window down along 1 dimension
> which is flexible, easy and consistent with the existing window
> management gestures.
> 
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:44 AM, marcel.taeumel <

> Marcel.Taeumel@

> > wrote:
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote
>>>> On 25.03.2016, at 19:28, tim Rowledge <
>>
>>> tim@
>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 25-03-2016, at 7:56 AM, Bert Freudenberg <
>>
>>> bert@
>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There are actually two problems that look very similar but are
>>>>> unrelated:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) grips on top of the text morph
>>>>>
>>>>> In a 5.0 image, the text morph is behind the grips. Apparently this
>>>>> has
>>>>> been fixed in the mean time, in Trunk it looks fine. This is obviously
>>>>> independent of platform.
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) window “grip” on Mac
>>>>>
>>>>> On a Mac, the VM provides a similar “grip” for the full Squeak window,
>>>>> which makes it impossible to click in the lower left and right
>>>>> corners.
>>>>>
>>>>> So (1) appears to be fixed in trunk and (2) can not be fixed because
>>>>> it’s the same in all Mac apps. I’d say we’re good.
>>>>
>>>> I know this hardly ever happens, but Bert is right :-O
>>>
>>> Well, almost. I just noticed that in the 5.0 All-in-One-VM the Mac
>>> corner
>>> grip is visible, and *only* affects the lower right window corner:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ... whereas in a 5.0.3602 Spur VM the grips are invisible and in both
>>> lower-left and lower-right corners.
>>>
>>> Is this a difference between Carbon and Cocoa VMs, maybe?
>>>
>>> - Bert -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> PastedGraphic-1.png (7K)
>>> <http://forum.world.st/attachment/4886719/0/PastedGraphic-1.png>
>>> smime.p7s (5K)
>>> <http://forum.world.st/attachment/4886719/1/smime.p7s>
>>
>> Hi, there.
>>
>> In Windows 10, the grab handles are outside the (resp. adjacent to)
>> windows
>> and reside in the drop shadow. Since there are no window borders anymore
>> in
>> Windows 10, the window contents would otherwise overlap with the grips.
>> This
>> holds also for the corner grips.
>>
>> I think we should also move our grips to the outside if SystemWindow
>> borders
>> are too small. The only draw back would be that full-screen windows
>> cannot
>> be resized anymore. Should they anyway? Maximized means maximized. :-)
>>
>> Best,
>> Marcel
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
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>> Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>

Hi Chris,

after reading your response several times to look for some useful feedback,
I think I actually found some. Here is what I found:

1. It is advisable to make suggestions about changes to Squeak without
referring to systems were many people have mixed feelings about. A somewhat
neutral and objective perspective is more likely to foster fruitful
discussions.

2. Squeak's windows do have borders where the resize grips perfectly fit in
without covering the window's contents or control buttons. There is no need
to move the grips to the outside of the window.

3. From a user perspective, Squeak's resize grips have a visual
representation, which is the window border itself.

4. The shadow of a window is not part of the window. A click into the shadow
of a window means clicking next to it or behind it.

While I totally agree with the points 1 and 2, I kind of disagree with 3 and
4. However, this is just my personal experience. I am not aware of any
studies that confirm or refute these statements.

Now, just for a moment, let's think about and discuss zero-border windows. 

Apple's Mac OS has been having them for a long time. Once, there was only
the grip in the bottom right corner to resize a window. Nowadays, there are
also grips for the edges. Tobias showed me that in a recent version and it
seems that the edge grips partially overlap the window contents because
there is no window border. They do, however, not really really into the
window's shadow. Anyway, the grips do not have a visual representation other
than the changing mouse cursor when hovering over them. Looking at the OS X
Human Interface Guidelines, grips are only mentioned very briefly:
https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/WindowAppearanceBehavior.html

Microsoft's Windows 10 reduced window borders down to a single pixel. It
looks like the window borders in Mac OS X. The grips, however, do not
overlap with the window contents but reach into the window's drop shadow. In
my daily experience, I had no troubles resizing windows via the grips.

I have no real experience with Ubuntu/Linux (resp. Gnome, KDE, ...).

*~*~*~*

Why was I writing about this? About a year ago, I refactored some magic
numbers to make the border thickness of Squeak's windows configurable.
Especially in the face of Hi-DPI, this should work to provide bigger borders
in the sense of pixels to keep their effective size similar. Then I thought:
"Why does there have to be a border at all?" ... when it might be used for
real content instead. But what about the window grips? If they would overlap
the content, it would be somewhat annoying. Then I discovered the way
Windows 10 does it, and I liked it.

That's it. Thanks for your time.

Best,
Marcel



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