On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:52 PM tim Rowledge <tim at rowledge.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On 2019-12-29, at 5:00 PM, Chris Muller <asqueaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Squeak's IDE should present that it understands core competencies of
> development, and LEAD users by not offering haphazard ways to do
> configuration management, e.g., "Save as...".  Ultimately it's a path to
> nowhere, possibly even pain, and yet exacts a significant and mandatory
> cost to the IDE's consistency, usability and scope.
>
> What exactly is it that you are objecting to here? You've claimed to have
> a much better way to save and load preferences; what is that way? What is
> the actual problem with providing users with a simple and familiar way to
> save/load a preferences file?  If it is simply that you don't think
> preferences should be saved to files, then please separate that from
> complaining about any particular technique for choosing the file. After
> all, if there is a totally better way we want to know.


"Show in Folder" button like in Firefox, Chrome.   I already said that..

I also proposed a "Select..." button, which would use your FileDialog.

Both proposals are existing in other apps, "familiar..."


>
> Similarly with saving images as different names and in different places.
> It isn't a common thing to do, but when you do want to do it I claim it is
> helpful to have a UI affordance that makes it simple. Do you actually claim
> it is better to use a FillInTheBlank


YES, absolutely!!!


> and have to remember path details to type in?


Tim, please wake up, YOU are the one who has to remember a path, not me,
because that's how you do configuration management -- sprinkling your
.image and .prefs files around by navigating a tree widget in a modal
dialog.

I use a configurable build system, I define everything, then Version it,
then press one button.  "One-click" deploy.  "One-click" install.  What
you're doing is hundreds of clicks, error-prone...

Tim, what about your experience with Personal SqueakSource, does that not
give you the context of what I'm describing?


> Are you claiming that changing an image name should be done only in host
> tools?


No, of course not, I do it all the time, that's why I can't stand the new
"Save as..." popping up the FileDialog.  It's a BEAST now...  and for bad
reasons even..  :(


> Because that will really screw up your 'flow'. Not least because of having
> to rename two separate files.


> You haven't explained at all, in any way whatsoever, what is a problem.
> Gish-galloping around the place does nothing helpful.
>

I tried my best in the opening of this thread to lead your thought process,
by posing that initial question, but you never really addressed it...   I
believe that's where "consensus" lies, but I can only lead a horse to
water, not make him drink....   :/

The primary purpose of Image "Save as..." is to jump into a new image to
try something that might be dangerous.  It is NOT, I repeat, NOT, configure
your application.  But that's what you want to use it for and,
unfortunately, it killed user performance with the original use-case.
Worse, it introduced a new place where we breach the Smalltalk sandbox at a
new place where it never was before.  If we take our IDE design seriously,
we should think long and hard about that.

 - Chris
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