Hi all,
But a good part of bloat and complexity came early in the 3.x serie, so
it's not a new thing.
For example, Object selectors size is a bit above 100 in squeak 1.x, and
above 400 yet in 3.9. Also Morphic was not introduced in 5.3, and most of
its complexity was here in 3.x.
By construction, with the goal to be conservative (let old package work)
while still introducing new tools and features, we hardly can come back to
a lean image. Pharo could be relieved from this compatibility burden, but
the desire to catch up outside world complexity (provide many features
leveraging tech of the day), and a tendancy to over engineering (like opal)
so as to have clean and powerful design will never eliminate bloat, just
replace it.
It remains Cuis, which is closer to this simplicity goal. Despite recent
burst of features, it may be the closest to early smalltalk spirit, i wish
Juan does not forget this goal.
Porting BabyIDE to Cuis might not necessarily be simpler than porting to
5.3 though... it might still be worth a try if complexity matters.

Nicolas

Le ven. 14 août 2020 à 21:42, Vanessa Freudenberg <vanessa at codefrau.net> a
écrit :

> On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 2:31 AM Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Trygve,
>>
>> I apologize for any misunderstandings here. I am not an English native
>> speaker. It was not my intent do accuse you of lying.
>>
>> However, there is a difference between a bug report and an
>> unsubstantiated rant. I did read your entire post "A Sad Day" as the
>> latter. Whose mistake that was, I cannot tell now. Neutral, objective bug
>> reports would read different, I suppose.
>>
>
> It was neither a bug report nor an unsubstantiated rant. It was a
> criticism of the complexity of all current Smalltalks. The few examples of
> unexpected complexity in Squeak that Trygve chose to mention are not the
> actual issue. No need to feel personally attacked.
>
> Having worked with a beautifully tiny system like Smalltalk-78, or even
> early versions of Squeak, the complexity in modern Squeak is staggering.
>
> Smalltalk used to be a system that can be fully understood by a single
> person - truly a personal computing system. That is no longer the case.
>
> All the functionality we added over the years comes at the price of
> complexity (not to mention speed). It makes the system hard to understand.
> It makes it hard to see the design principles. We have not found a way to
> eliminate, or at least hide, any of the complexity we introduced.
>
> I don't think there is a "solution" for this within the current system. We
> have accepted the complexity, and now we have to live with it. And we have
> to accept that that alienates people who are looking for simplicity and
> elegance.
>
> I am sad to see Trygve leave, but I do understand. He didn't even owe us
> an explanation. Thank you, Trygve!
>
> All the best,
> Vanessa
>
>
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