<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Three Threads Of Squeak</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<STYLE type=text/css>BLOCKQUOTE {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
DL {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
UL {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
OL {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
LI {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi, Justin!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm copying this to you directly as well as to the list as my emails seem
to be very slow in getting through to squeak-dev much of the time (I doubt this
will appear within twelve hours, though I could be surprised :-)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The "problem" you're seeing is caused not by malicious behavior but by the
way many email programs handle replies in html, which is by indenting the
previous message to distinguish it from the reply. Each subsequent reply
in the thread will further indent all previous messages, and the indents will
eventually accumulate to the point where the original message is indented
practically off the screen.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the thread is converted (including in your own email program) to plain
text, all the indenting should be removed and the thread will revert to the
full width used in your email program.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I personally haven't found this thread particularly enlightening, but I
wouldn't want you to think it was being manipulated unfairly.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gary Fisher</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jwalsh@bigpond.net.au href="mailto:jwalsh@bigpond.net.au">Justin
Walsh</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Three Threads Of
Squeak</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Can somebody please tell me why this thread has
been effectively been garbaged.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anybody wishing to read previous contributions
will find it pretty well impossible to read them owing to the fact that they
gradually diminish to one word per line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If it is to save space then how?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Or is it merely to maliciously guide people away
from the "Three Thread Of Squeak</FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>"
topic,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>by using, as bait a prominant name.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm sure there is a perfectly good explanation,
perhaps the yahooligans are back in town or maybe I'm just paranoid or
technically ignorant.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Alan.Kay@squeakland.org href="mailto:Alan.Kay@squeakland.org">Alan
Kay</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 05, 2001 1:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Three Threads Of
Squeak</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I wasn't talking about Squeak per se, but only about this round of
explorations into children's programming. I think the base of Squeak (and
the children's stuff could be a lot better).</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Alan</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>-------</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>At 12:43 AM +0000 11/5/01, Gary McGovern wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite><TT><FONT size=-1>One thing is Justin, Squeak
has already been designed. According to an article that was linked to
this list a few of months ago, an article that covered Squeak Central
leaving Disney, it mentioned that 95% of the design made
by Alan had been accomplished.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite><TT><FONT size=-1>Based on that, I don't see
how the design of Squeak itself can be an issue for discussion. Wouldn't
those matters be for Squeak Central to figure out? (Exception: Unless
anyone was up to the job of producing their own
offshoot).</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite><TT><FONT
size=-1>Regards,</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite><TT><FONT size=-1>Gary</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite" cite><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message -----</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:jwalsh@bigpond.net.au">Justin
Walsh</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:15 AM</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Subject:</B> Re: Three Threads Of Squeak</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>For those people who reply to me directly:
I don't really have any other layout to offer (at this place and time)
than the Hierarchy/Network model that was offered
earlier</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Concept
Hierarch level 1 or Think</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT
size=-1>Logical Hierarch
level 2 or Think/Do</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Physical
Hierarch level 3 or Do</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>and</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT
size=-1>Play
peer to peer This I consider the realm of the
"Autonomous" Object or Virus.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>I have cut from another public email, to
myself, a reply which, I think, expects me to decide which
thread it belongs to.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>I have an opinion but, to avoid
controversy, I reproduce it here again for the readers of this thread to
respectfully, analyse, remembering that the content not the person is
relevant.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>The attached pdf demonstrates at least one
others point of view. </FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Justin,<BR><BR>In this OS as Squeak Schema you describe, how
do you answer this question?<BR><BR>If a hen and a half lays an egg and
a half in a day and a half, how many<BR>waffles does it take to cover a
dog house?<BR><BR>Jim</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Is it technically feasible for say, a
list like this one, on command, to be sorted on the above 4
(?)</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>threads?</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Currently on Open Outlook I only
have: From, Subject and
Receive.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message -----<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:jwalsh@bigpond.net.au">Justin
Walsh</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:05
PM</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Subject:</B> Re: Three Threads Of Squeak</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Missing attachment</FONT></TT><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message -----</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:jwalsh@bigpond.net.au">Justin Walsh</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:04
PM</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Subject:</B> Three Threads Of Squeak</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Building professional software is like
building a, building:</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Three stages:</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT
size=-1>Concept requires<SPAN></SPAN>
Designer ~ ideas</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT
size=-1>Logistic
requires Architect ~
concepts</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT
size=-1>Construct requires
Builder ~ objects</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>One tool, three threads. Designers
don't lay bricks and Brickies don't design
buildings.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>There are those that just like playing
so the above order doesnt matter unless the play is a professional
activity. In that case more threads may be added to the
list.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>It is not productive to confuse these
different threads. It leads to insult and counter
insult.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Generally speaking anyone who has ever
been a designer will understand the role of policy, philosopy,
religion: in some countries if the building faces the wrong
direction nobody will live or work in it.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Anybody who has ever been
a brickie will understand the role of initiate, inventiveness,
imagination ie most of the tools we find at the floor level have
been created by workers "laying bricks" or to stretch a metaphor,
"writing code".</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Sandwiched in between are the
Logicians who use yet another set of tools to ensure that Designs
correspond with Objects (of design).</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>We don't have to like, understand,
accept, .., each other. Just respect each
other.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Each has a different vision for
Smalltalk that is all.</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1></FONT></TT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT><FONT size=-1>Attached is one person view on the
matter</FONT></TT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><X-SIGSEP><PRE>--
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></X-SIGSEP></BODY></HTML>