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<div>Hi Rick --</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The Bronze Age ended around 1200BC. Check out the history of
Martensite which is iron that has been treated by heating and pounding
in carbon and quenching to make the first kind of steel.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If I recall well enough, quite a few steel Martensite steel
artifacts (mostly knives and farming tools) have been found and dated
to the 11th century BC (many of these in Cyprus). Quenching of steel
BTW is mentioned in Homer's Odyssey which was put together in the 9th
and 8th century BC.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The Romans had steel arms, and their success was due to their
organizational abilities and discipline. The Scythians were able to
hold them off and generally discourage them because they were the
greatest archers in the world at that time and didn't play by the
rules. They fought from horseback with powerful long-range recurve
bows, etc.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Alan</div>
<div><br>
At 6:28 PM -0700 8/25/03, Rick McGeer wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>I'll regret asking this, but...<br>
<br>
as I (dimly) recall, the threshold between the bronze age and the iron
age was with the development of coal fires hot enough to smelt iron +
carbon into carbon steel. As far as I know, this technology was
first used in the west several centuries into the Common Era, though
one can find references to steel swords in one text that purports to
recount events in ancient Jerusalem -- to wit, the Book of Mormon, in
which Lehi reports being attacked by men with steel swords in
Jerusalem in the period just before the Babylonian exile.<br>
<br>
It wouldn't surprise me if steel showed up in Japan or China in the
BCE period, but wouldn't a steel-armed army pretty handily dispose of
bronze-armed opponents? If that's the case, how does one
explain the success of the (bronze-armed) Roman legions in the
middle east if there were steel-armed Scythians, or Hebrews, or
Assyrians, or...<br>
<br>
Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt> Alan,<br>
<br>
Well, I didn't mean to claim anything, but I just found it
funny<br>
that a vague "samurai swords" thing is used as a (an
arbitrary)<br>
reference point in the sword history...<br>
<br>
-- Yoshiki<br>
<br>
At Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:45:51 -0800,<br>
Alan Kay wrote:<br>
</tt><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt>Yes, my recollection is that the idea
of laminating steel in many<br>
layers to make resiliant swords quite antedates Europe, and was
first<br>
developed in Asia and in the Middle East. Just as the recurve bow<br>
already existed in China during Roman times (IIRC) and this<br>
technology was used by the Scythians to decisively defeat the
Romans<br>
several times and effectively discourage them from occupying their<br>
territory.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Alan<br>
<br>
------<br>
<br>
At 10:36 AM -0700 8/25/03, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:<br>
</tt><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt> Piers,<br>
<br>
Now, it is really off-topic...<br>
<br>
</tt><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt> Not that the Dark Ages were
actually backwards, just that stuff<br>
didn't tend to get written down. Take a look at the
technology<br>
involved in making, say, a Saxon sword (which used essentially
the<br>
same techniques as were developed centuries later in Japan to
make<br>
Samurai swords) or the quality of work in things like the
Ardagh<br>
Chalice.<br>
</tt><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt> What century you are talking
about? (And what is<br>
"Samurai swords", I should ask.)<br>
<br>
-- Yoshiki<br>
</tt><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt><br>
--<br>
</tt><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><tt><br>
<br>
<br>
</tt><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>--<br>
Personal Signature</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Rick McGeer<br>
<br>
50 Diablo View Road<br>
Phone: (925) 254-2524<br>
Orinda, CA, 94563<br>
FAX: (925) 253-0623<br>
<a href="mailto:%20rick@mcgeer.com">rick@mcgeer.com</a><br>
Cell: (510) 334-6004<br>
Yahoo IM: rickmcgeer<br>
AOL IM: rickmcgeer 1<br>
MSN IM: <a
href="mailto:rickmcgeer@hotmail.com">rickmcgeer@hotmail.com</a></blockquote
>
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