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<br><div><div>On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:51 , Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>[also snipped rather radically]</div><blockquote type="cite"><div><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><br></p> <blockquote type="cite"><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">[community around a new Squeak?]</font></p> </blockquote><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><br></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">That is something I thought a lot about back in 1998. And I watch</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">closely the community's reaction to stuff like Coke or Slate. What I</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">concluded was that there are several rather different groups. The</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">largest group is the eToys users and they are extremely under</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">represented here. There is a tiny "use Squeak to build something better"</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">group but most people here are in the "we need a great open source</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Smalltalk-80" (there is a lot of overlap, of course). So I don't see how</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">you can change things and not lose a significant part of this</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">(squeak-dev) community.</font></p></div></blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>In theory: refactor. Make the the "something better" something that is more abstract than either eToys or Smalltalk-80 and allow it to have "subclasses" that are, in effect, eToys and a great Smalltalk-80. Which is not the same as a big bowl of everything at once.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div> <blockquote type="cite"><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Increasing complexity is easy; moving it around in tradeoffs is harder;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">reducing it is hardest and generally require a leap of the imagination.</font></p></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>And/or a lot of refactoring... :-) Or rather: refactorings that require a leap of the imagination. But probably not "extensions" to what is already there. </div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite"> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Sorry to say it, but Squeak still seems pretty complex to me, and moreso<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">than ten years ago. :-)</font></p> </blockquote><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><br></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Which is why it is a good thing that the version of Neo Smalltalk I am</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">working on right now is 16 bits. When you only have 32K objects total</font></p> <p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">simplicity is not optional.</font></p> </div></blockquote></div><br><div>That is probably a good learning experience, but I am not sure that this is the same kind of simplicity.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Marcel</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></body></html>