Hi all, <br>I'm new in this list, at least as a writer... I'd been reading the posts for awhile and I'm very interested in squeak development... and yes, I would like to see squeak all around the world, not being used just for a few developers.
<br>I totally agree with Milan, the key is to atract more developers to Squeak world... and through them to the managers :)<br>Ok, then... this days, many software applications are web applications. In fact, it has been several years since I develop a "normal" application (of course, It's just my life, but I think many programmers could say the same), so, I really believe that Seaside is the killer framework for web applications... and I think throug Seaside (and developing new tools and components to harness it ) we can "conquer the web".
<br>Another thinks I think we need: <br>a) better ORMs to propietary data bases, particularly Oracle and MSSQL: ODBC is not really a good way to do this, because our applications get tied to Windows.<br>b) a better system to distribute objects (rST?), or better: a way to connect images running so we can cluster web applications in the easy way.
<br><br>Thats my 2 cents. <br><br>Cheers,<br>Esteban<br><br>pd: I'm very sorry if this is no news or not interesting for the members of the list... I'm new and don't know older debates. <br>ppd: I know... my english sucks, so, I'm sorry for that to.
<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/1/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Derek O'Connell</b> <<a href="mailto:doconnel@gmail.com">doconnel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Regarding "attracting more developers": before appearing critical I'd<br>like to say that *I see* the potential in Squeak/Smalltalk but I'm not<br>sure it is immediately apparent to many others (meaning those yet to
<br>encounter Squeak/Smalltalk). This is not to say I have any sort of<br>special insight or anything but because of years of relying on other<br>developers to one extent or another it is refreshing to work in an<br>environment where each new nugget of learning contributes to my
<br>knowledge of the *total* environment. There's no technology barrier at<br>which point I have to re-tool to gain deeper control of the<br>environment (beyond the obvious topic of customising the VM but even<br>this would be transitory (do it then just use it)). My only regret is
<br>that I didn't "discover" it years ago. I'm also grateful that<br>experienced developers continue to improve Squeak but... (you knew it<br>was coming :-) )...<br><br>Squeak/Smalltalk has been around for years with I guess large numbers
<br>of interested developers at one time or another but still has almost<br>*ZERO* mindshare in the general computer using population and, I would<br>also guess, close to zero in those that can or want to program. This,<br>
IMHO, is not simply a pubilicity problem, it's a presentation problem.<br>Framed crudely: Squeak/Smalltalk *is* a great development environment<br>but a dire *user* environment. Yes, Morphic is way cool but most user<br>
oriented "applications" are mashed up with non-application elements<br>and many an answer to newbies questions begin with "Open up a<br>workspace, type "blah new openInWorld", right-click, select "DoIt"...
<br>I mean, COME ON! What century are we in? I say this somewhat<br>tounge-in-cheek because if you have convinced a newbie to do this then<br>you can immediately claim that they have written and executed their<br>first Smalltalk program ("there, that wasn't hard was it?" LOL).
<br><br>So to get specific: should the focus be on attracting more developers<br>or more "casual" users, and are better development tools needed or<br>more end-user applications? In truth there is no correct answer and it
<br>is a bit of a chicken-n-egg situation. Any answer depends on the state<br>of affairs at the time it is given. Today there are developers (I'm<br>not sure how many) but I argue that there are *no* casual users and<br>
that end-user applications are needed. If the question is "who cares<br>about casual users?" then I say that these, not developers, are future<br>life-blood of Squeak/Smalltalk development, they will generate the
<br>demand that ensures Squeak/Smalltalk continues to exist and improve. I<br>could also question the role of developers without end-users and<br>postulate that if there were more end-users today then there would<br>also be jobs for Smalltalk developers... and everyone would be happy
<br>:-P<br><br>A few final points:<br><br>- I pay homage to EToys, Seaside, Scratch, Sophie etc but none of<br>these are what I would class as In-Squeak user-based applications.<br>Croquet of course offers potential but I would say not for general
<br>consumption until high speed comms and 3D hw acceleration become so<br>standard that suppliers/manufacturers list them in their basic specs<br>(if only people would not dream to buy machines without hw 3D!)<br><br>- I recognise the wealth of code in the image but question the
<br>accessibility of this to casual users or even wanna-be programmers. In<br>the case of the former presentation is very much key, for the latter<br>the amorphousness of Smalltalk interfaces lack the "sign-posts"
<br>provided by well-documented API's in other environments.<br><br>- Squeak is an ideal place to challenge peoples concepts of what a GUI<br>is and what they should be able to with it. A much better environment<br>for *any* sort of experimentation than say "Proce55ing". I have a few
<br>ideas that I'd like to throw into the pot, depending on what direction<br>Brad takes this conversation.<br><br>- To the hardcore Smalltalk developers: despite any apparent<br>criticisms above, I LOVE YOU! WE LOVE YOU! Carry on coding dudes! :-)
<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>"Querer es suscitar las paradojas"<br>Camus. El míto de Sísifo.