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Craig,<br>
I believe SPOON is a very important departure. It permits the
fundamentally new to live side by side with the old. It deserves to
succeed.<br>
<br>
The idea of "burn the disk packs" was a fundamental mistake; it doesn't
take into account that the value of a release image is minuscule
compared to the value added by user/programmers. The idea of a personal
computer cannot be reconciled with the idea of throwing everything away
every few years. What about my address book, my diary, the useful
program I wrote two years ago, the program I'm working on now. (My
programs are part of my personal data)<br>
<br>
I am afraid you expect too much from the community. Like everyone else,
I am working on my own pet project(s). Like everyone else, I am trying
to avoid committing <i>error 33: Predicating one research effort upon
the success of another.</i>
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/E/error-33.html">http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/E/error-33.html</a>)<br>
<br>
Still, I do want to try SPOON. But I got wary when I followed the
installation directions and immediately crashed. Perhaps the project
hasn't got as far as I expected.<br>
<br>
Dear Craig. I understand your funding has dried out so that funding is
your prime concern. But I sincerely hope you can continue your work on
SPOON. You may have to do it alone until you have a reasonably stable
core so that other people can start populating it with their own pet
revolutions. I think it was Storm-P who said: "When you want to change
the world, start in its center and begin with yourself".<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
--Trygve<br>
<br>
On 12.07.2007 04:11, Craig Latta wrote:
<blockquote cite="midf742kf$dml$2@sea.gmane.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Avi and everyone--
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">There were two principles I was following. The first was that,
occasionally, a system requires important fundamental changes to
remain vital. I refer to previously-expressed concepts of "blue
plane" or "burn the disk packs" thinking. (I hesitate to use those
particular phrases, because I think much of their power in this
community derives from nostaliga. I do think, however, that they
truly were valid ideas.) I came to believe that the Squeak community
was particularly receptive to these ideas, not just [to] the people
espousing them or the funding they represented.
The second principle was that discussion of a shared vision could
ameliorate the lack of a short-term gain, and even hasten the
implementation of the vision by attracting volunteers. There was a
time in the Squeak community, it seemed to me, when we could discuss
the merits of an idea before the implementation was finished. I
found it useful, and inspiring. This is why I have been writing
progress reports for Spoon and asking for feedback.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Aha. My personal observation has been that this principle does not
hold. One piece of evidence I have is the various version control
systems I have worked on for Squeak. The current version of
Monticello arose through a series of very incremental and (in
retrospect) "unnecessary" early versions (including "DVS" before it
was called "Monticello"), but each of which was released as a working
and useful artifact without any prior discussion.
For Monticello 2, on the other hand, we've released plenty of
information, tried to open discussion many times, asked for volunteers
at several points, but never released something that people could
actually use for their daily work. Result: apart from Damien who
recently got some funding to work on it, we've had no response
whatsoever. This despite the fact that MC2 is a much better and more
ambitious design than any of the prior versions of MC.
I've seen similar patterns with Seaside versions over the years:
discussions about the future go precisely nowhere. Ditto experimental
branches for people to play with. But make a deep change that still
lets people get their work done and nobody blinks.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Okay, but if the second principle doesn't hold, then I don't see
how the first one can have any actual significance in this community. To
use Koestler's "bisociation" metaphor[1] yet again, it seems that where
I want to go is simply not reachable through any path we're collectively
willing to take.
So, it seems I must go there myself (with those few others who can
take some time away from getting work done, or who can somehow
rationalize the effort itself as getting work done :). Only then, if the
result is practical for use by everyone else, should I ask for
consideration here. I can accept that, although I find it disappointing
and surprising given my early experiences with the community. But it's
still not clear to me what the community would consider "practical",
despite a few attempts some have made to elaborate (I appreciate the
attempts anyway).
In the absence of meaningful planning by the Squeak community on
whether, when, and how to use Spoon, those working on it[2] can only
leave those decisions to others. Oh, and I suppose those with funding
can feel free to speak up at any time. :)
In short (too late! ;), I won't press this further, you all know
where to find Spoon info if you want it[3]. I'll keep helping in other
ways. Thanks for reading.
-C
[1] ...the "blue/pink planes" stuff, e.g. as mentioned by Kay from 17:25
onward in <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tinyurl.com/ok5df">http://tinyurl.com/ok5df</a> (video.google.com).
[2] ...it's not just me, although I am coordinating it.
[3] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://netjam.org/spoon">http://netjam.org/spoon</a>
--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.netjam.org">www.netjam.org</a>
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Trygve Reenskaug mailto: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trygver@ifi.uio.no">trygver@ifi.uio.no</a>
Morgedalsvn. 5A <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://folk.uio.no/trygver">http://folk.uio.no/trygver</a>
N-0378 Oslo Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27
Norway
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