<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug 25, 2007, at 4:39 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">let me elaborate:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">a message1 | message2</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">is equal to:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">a message1 message2</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">and:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">a message1: param | message2: param2</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">is equeal to:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">(a message1: param) message2: param2</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">and as you can see writing code with so-called 'pipes' makes code much cleaner</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Igor expressed what I'm after....</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On Aug 25, 2007, at 4:43 AM, Blake wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">But the parens in the ST in the second one are almost a graphic representation of the object being created, to which the message2 is being passed.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Look down ... the graphic representation is a poor one because It's too costly: too may parenthesis. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On Aug 25, 2007, at 4:51 AM, Matthew Fulmer wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Those two examples are exactly the same length in characters, so</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I don't see what metric qualifies one as much cleaner than the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">other.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>check this out ... </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>(((((((((((obj message1: param) message2:param) message1: param) message2:param) message1: param) message2:param) message1: param) message2:param) message1: param) message2:param) message1: param) message2:param</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>there is this thing > (((((((((((( </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>now look the cleaner </DIV><DIV>pipe ....</DIV><DIV>obj message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>now some mix and match ...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>obj | send</DIV><DIV> | left: a right:b</DIV><DIV> | send | send | send</DIV><DIV> | left: a right:b</DIV><DIV> | message</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The pipe is needed to support a pipe&filter style of programming. That perfectly works with Smalltalk syntax, and truly</DIV><DIV>opens up a better way of doing functional transformations.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug 25, 2007, at 4:51 AM, Matthew Fulmer wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Parenthesis are not very common in squeak, and this would be</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">less common as parenthesis. Parentheses are more general</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">too; you could not do this with pipes:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">dict at: (self keyFor: anItem) put: 3</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I am really missing what the point of this is</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It's less general but since functional transformations are a very powerful idiom (Haskells monads, Haskells Arrows, </DIV><DIV>the Unix pipe, ... just to name a few) a little help from the language would be nice. </DIV><DIV>It' not a parentesis vs pipe problem, it's a pipe vs cascade. Why ST has the cascade ? Can someone explain it me ... Why need a special operator for that ? I don't care about cascading... but maybe there is something I'm missing.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> Parentheses are more general too</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Use Lisp than. Everything is a pair... and you'll have as many general parenthesis you want :-p .... just joking ... I see you point but ... my argument is not pipe vs parenthesis, but pipe vs cascade, because I want the the pipe&filter style of programming </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I state that:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV> >>>>>>>>> cascade is useless <<<<<<<<<<<<</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>because it's redundant :</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Example :</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>point x:10; y:10; z:10. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Your could write in fact.</DIV><DIV>(((point x:10) y:10) z:10)</DIV><DIV>since x:10 returns self anyway, y:10 returns self anyway and z:10 returns self anyway.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>but thanks to the ";" (cascade) you can write ...</DIV><DIV>point x:10; y:10; z:10. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Then I say ... ok so the designer wants to remove those ugly parenthesis ...</DIV><DIV>why not do a better job by using a more general operator ??</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I can do the cascade stuff ...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>point x:10 | y:10 | z:10</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>and .. magic ...</DIV><DIV>I can do better functional transformations, pipe&filters style.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>obj message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV> | message1: param</DIV><DIV> | message2:param</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>With the pipe I removed parenthesis from much wider selection of cases, I enable a cleaner way of writing functional transformations, and therefore it's a better design.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Fabio's proposal:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>make the ";" cascade operator send the message not the the previous receiver but to the object returned by the previous message send.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Fabio Filasieno</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>