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Jason Johnson wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 10/21/07, Peter William Lount <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peter@smalltalk.org"><peter@smalltalk.org></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">tim Rowledge wrote:
Ok, so if you really are talking about a "strict" Erlang style model
with ONE Smalltalk process per "image" space (whether or not they are in
one protected memory space or many protected memory spaces) where
objects are not shared with any other threads except by copying them
over the "serialization wire" or by "reference" then I get what you are
talking about.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
That is a strange way of putting it. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why? That is what Erlang achieves via it's total encapsulation of state
that is only transferred by message passing to and back from a process.
To achieve the same thing in Smalltalk you'd need to isolate the
component objects running in an "image" object space with the process
otherwise you'd be breaking the encapsulation that provides the
protection against a large number of class es of concurrency problems. <br>
<br>
The principle is that anytime you have more than one thread or process
working on the same memory space, or object space, you WILL have
concurrency issues (unless your code is just running very simple
concurrency). The point is that in order to implement your
utopia-vision-of-simple-problem-free-concurrency (utopia-concurrencia
for lack of a better name) in Smalltalk you MUST isolate the objects to
ONLY ONE thread of possible alteration of their state otherwise you end
up with the possibility of many classes of concurrency problems. Shared
memory problems exist even within one protected memory space and not
just between them. To isolate the objects involved in a process you can
have a separate object space which contains the objects that will be
operated on. This is the Erlang way, isn't it? The thing about Erlang,
unless I'm mistaken (and if I am mistaken I'd expect to be corrected),
is that the objects in a process are only visible to that process until
the results are returned. The objects that pass in and out of an Erlang
process are only primitive data types and not complex objects. However
for Smalltalk you'd need to pass in complex object graphs of arbitrary
size and connectedness to be general purpose. This then results in a
version problem. <br>
<br>
For example, lets say that you have a graph of one million objects that
is highly connected and you want to perform not just a simple read
operation on it but a massive number of edits which would result in the
graph growing by 50% and the number of connections growing by 70%. For
speed you decide to implement the algorithms so that they can run in
parallel upon this moderately large graph of objects. Lets say that you
have enough compute and memory resources to split this into 10,000
processes. Now you have the problem of sharing the one million objects
with the 10,000 processes. That's a lot of data to move around just to
get things started assuming that you packaged up the whole mess into a
serial blob and spit it at the various processes. A lot of redundant
data. Ok, maybe it's better to do this in small chunks, after all
incrementalism is a powerful technique. For this approach you send each
of the 10,000 processes a starting node plus a "search pattern" and the
type of edits it will perform upon the graph along with the actual
edits as they flow in from another source. So now you have 10,000
processes each vying to traverse the one million node graph scanning
for patterns and applying edits as they find what they are looking for.
Some of these processes will then update the "shared graph". Oh. What
happens when two processes both update the same node in this graph but
in different ways? Let's say one edit in one process adds a connection
while the other edit in the other node modifies an instance variable on
that node? Let's say that these two edits occur at the same time and
are mutually exclusive - that is both edits would break the object's
own internal consistency rules. So now you have two edits that either
must both fail, or one must succeed while the other fails or the other
must succeed - both can't succeed. Now you've got a problem that the
magical erlang message passing won't solve. <br>
<br>
If it does what is the erlang solution to this million node parallel
editing problem? <br>
<br>
Now someone mentioned Software Transactional Memory (STM) so briefly
that it would be easy to miss. Is that your solution? If so you still
have other concurrency issues, object versioning issues, plus more to
deal with. No solution is a panacea for all problems unless you are an
advocate of silver bullet solutions.<br>
<br>
The problem of editing a large graph of objects with many parallel
threads is the generalized case of a nasty and complex set of
concurrency and transactional issues. There are many ways to solve
this. If you reply to this example I would hope that you do so fully
explaining how you'd handle the concurrency and - importantly - the
object consistency issues. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The fact is, Erlang has many processes per image. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, I understand that early tests indicate that Erlang can handle
approximately 100,000 or so processes at a time without hickups while
Java can handle about 8,000 or so before blowing up. I don't know what
the various Smalltalks can handle, but I doubt it's as high as Erlang
and is more likely less than even Java - just a guess though. Maybe
someone has worked it out. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Many more then you could ever get as real
processes or native threads (as a test I made a little program that
spawned 64 *thousand* threads and passed messages between them on my
laptop).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
That's only because the current crop of operating systems were designed
and envisioned when a few hundred processes and threads was considered
a lot. Also because native operating system processes take a lot of
resources.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">But with their model, process creation is extremely cheap. And since
there is no sharing as far as the language is concerned, there is no
need for locking to slow everything down.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, and how would the no sharing be implemented in Smalltalk? <br>
<br>
How would you solve the concurrency one million node editing problem
above without locking in your utopian threading implementation?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Smalltalk can do this too. I think it needs a little work still, but
I'm optimistic about what can be done here.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
What would you do to Smalltalk to make it do this. So far you and the
others have been very short on specifics and have just argued that
something magical can be done to make concurrency happen without locks.
A few papers and web sites have been linked to but no one has written
down what they are proposing or what they mean past it can be done. <br>
<br>
I'll grant you that you can see that it can be done. Please illuminate
what it is that you see can be done in detail and how you might do it.
Thanks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">However, you'll still end up with concurrency control issues and you've
got an object version explosion problem occurring as well. How will you
control concurrency problems with your simplified system? Is there a
succinct description of the way that Erlang does it? Would that apply to
Smalltalk?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Much like how Smalltalk does it, as it turns out. That is, you don't
have a version problem so much as you have "old" and "new". So when
ready you send the "upgrade" message to the system and all new calls
to the main functions of a process will be the new version. All
currently running code will access the old code until it's completion,
and all new code runs in the new space.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok, so there would be 10,000 separate process-object-spaces with the
one million nodes being edited and new nodes being created in each of
these 10,000 separate spaces. How do you expect to "merge" the results
and solve the edits that will inevitably cause "logical data
inconsistency" collisions?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">You simplified concurrency system also dramatically alters the Smalltalk
paradigm.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
The current paradigm is fine-grained locked/shared state. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
So?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> In my opinion and the opinion of many (probably most in fact, outside of the
Java community) people who are more expert is this area then you or I,
we *have* to move away from this paradigm.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why? Please provide more than anticidal or belief driven comments for
this point of view. What are the reasons? What is it that you'd be
moving towards?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> </pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Is this the approach that Cincom is using in their Visual Works system?
They seem to not be embracing the notion of native threads.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Thank God. :)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
It's a huge mistake on their part in my humble view. <br>
<br>
While it may be easy from the point of view of adapting their image
it's a huge mistake. I've had many people comment that that's one of
the reasons that Java is better than Smalltalk - it already works with
multiple cpu cores. Yes they have to solve the concurrency problems,
but those are NO WORSE than the concurrency problems that already exist
within Smalltalk when running with a single native process and multiple
(green threads aka) Smalltalk Processes. No different. Do you actually
get that? If you don't then you fail to appreciate that the approach
that Cincom is taking isn't going to solve the concurrency problems
since - unless they correct me on this - it seems that their direction
is to simply have N-instances of their image (in the same memory space
or in separate operating system processes) where N would frequently be
the same as the number of cores on the computer (or server) in question
(although the instances could be more or less as needed). Each
individual image would still have the problems of multi-threading
within it IF AND ONLY IF there are multiple threads forked. Then you
have all the same concurrency problems that happen with multiple
threads on objects in one memory space. Sure this is a simpler approach
for them as they don't have to completely toss their current virtual
machine design - they can hack it by simply using one image space per
native processor or per native operating system process. Then all they
need is a cheap and dirty distributed object transport system to move
object graphs (complete or partial) around between the various images.
This will work for them and ALL Smalltalk systems including Squeak. In
fact this can work now essentially with unmodified Smalltalk systems -
all that's reallly needed is the distributed objects framework and
there are a few of those kicking around. <br>
<br>
This is of course a far cry from the radical concurrency system that is
being proposed by the erlangization concurrency proponents.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> </pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">However it's
also unlikely that they are embracing the notion of only ONE Smalltalk
process per image either.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
If I understand you correctly, then I would suggest not to use the
word "image" as this is confusing. Another way to put it would be
"each process has it's own view of the world". And honestly, what is
the problem you see with this?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok. How will you implement that?<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Right now, if you run two separate images with only one thread or
process, then you have two processes that each have their own set of
objects in their own space interacting with each other.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, exactly. This is the illusion that Erlang provides. This can also
be achieved now with ANY Smalltalk version just by starting multiple
images - one for each core if you want to map them that way as may be
"natural" to want to do.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Now we add a way for one image to send a message *between* images.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes. That can be done now. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Perhaps the VM can detect when we are trying to do this, but instead
of complicating the default Smalltalk message sending subsystem, lets
make it explicit with some special binary message:
Processes at: 'value computer' ! computeValue.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
There isn't any need for new syntax with the "!" character. Now sure
you're using it with a binary message selector "!" but why obfuscate
it. I'd recommend using a keyword selector for better clarity. Thanks. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Now we have the ability to send messages locally within a process, and
a way of freely sending between processes. No locking and the
problems associated with locking.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Not so. You'd have to transmit - in my example above - one million
objects to the various images and have them compute and return their
resutls which would then have to be combined in a manner that leaves
the graph of objects in a consistent state with one and a half million
objects and 70% more interconnections between them. It is this parallel
updating of many parts of the same data graph that will require the
concurrency controls.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So, now what is stopping us from moving this separate process *inside
the same image*? </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Nothing but you've got to address the concurrency problem that I've
mentioned above. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If you fork a process and he starts making objects,
no other processes have references to those objects. No shared state
issue there. This part could work right now today with no changes to
the VM.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Are you talking about forking a new operating system process with a
copy of the image? The "copied" objects or the objects that were in the
"image" to begin with are "duplicates" (or N-plicates really) which is
a real headache if they get modified in multiple images and need to be
"recombined" into one real persistent state. <br>
<br>
These are object database problems and attempting to split the
processing into multiple threads to avoid the "locking" issues does not
solve the problem. It just pushes it further away. While it might work
for some applications like telephone switching systems it can't
generalize to ALL types of problems which could benefit from
concurrency solutions. That's wishful thinking and a pipe dream
otherwise known as a silver bullet. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The only issue I can think of are globals, </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
All Object Databases have a couple of rooted objects. Maybe many more
than a couple. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the most obvious being
class side variables. Note that even classes themselves are not an
issue because without class side variables, they are effect free
(well, obviously basicNew would have to be looked at).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm not sure what you mean. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">But I think this issue is solvable. The VM could take a "copy on
write" approach on classes/globals. That is, a class should be side
effect free (to itself, i.e. it's the same after every call), so let
all processes share the memory space where meta-class objects live.
But as soon as any process tries to modify the class in some way
(literally, it would be the class modifying itself), he gets his own
copy. Processes must not see changes made by other processes, so a
modification to a global class is a "local only" change.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, a variant of the Software Transactional Memory. However, you still
have the problems mentioned above. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:aa22f0200710210307r89cdefem4ae355462df02369@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Of course the only big thing left would be; what happens when we add a
new class. But Erlang has had success with the old/new space
approach, and what Smalltalk has now is very similar.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Having two spaces, old and new space, won't solve the problems
mentioned above when you have N processes (threads) running on
M-objects in parallel and need to combine the results of the parallel
computations. <br>
<br>
Many problems have this "split processes off with their chunk of data"
and "recombine" the results. Many of these problems are simplified - if
possible - so that the results can't collide with the issues presented
above. However, we are not talking about those special cases - such as
parallel ray tracing algorithms. We are talking about the completely
generic cases that occur in general purpose and every day use of code
in Smalltalk applications - such as the massive Smalltalk business
database front end applications which are typical at many corporations
today and which utilize many threads to accomplish their parallel tasks
in order to speed up the user experience. A real world consequence of
this is increased productivity of thousands of users day in and day out
at these corporations.<br>
<br>
Maybe your applications aren't a complex as these but I don't see the
benefits of an Erlang ONLY approach. I do see the benefit of STM and
Erlang approaches in some cases but why intentionally limit the tool
box to just a few cases? It makes no sense to ignore the harsh reality
of concurrency issues by picking a limited set of solutions.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Peter William Lount<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peter@smalltalk.org">Peter@smalltalk.org</a><br>
<br>
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