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Hi,<br>
<br>
<br>
Sebastian Sastre wrote:
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Hi,<br>
<br>
Sebastian Sastre wrote:
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<div>hi,<br>
<br>
What? That just won't work. Think of the memory overhead. <br>
<span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">I don't give credit to unfounded
apriorisms. I think it deserves to be proved that does not work. Anyway
let's just assume that may be too much for state of the art hardware in
common computers in year 2007. What about in 2009? what about in 2012?
Remember the attitude you had saying this now the first day of 2012.</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
It's not an unfounded apriorism as you put it. <br>
<br>
Current hardware and technology expected in the next ten years isn't
optimized for N hundred thousand or N million threads of execution.
Maybe in the future that will be the case. <br>
<br>
The Tile-64 processor is expected to grow to about 4096 processors by
pushing the limits of technology beyond what they are today. To reach
the levels you are talking about for a current Smalltalk image with
millions of objects each having their own thread (or process) isn't
going to happen anytime soon. <br>
<br>
I work with real hardware.<br>
<br>
I am open and willing to be pleasantly surprised however. <br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Peter.. Peter.. you have to fight a
little harder to that demon. Look I asked you to read my previous post
with subject "One Process Per Instance" where I taked the time (so
money) of explainly as didactic as I can how *your* millon object
example could be managed in a system like the one I'm speculating with.
So please, please Peter, I ask you not to make repeat myself go read it
and make your statements there if you found them. As I already said I
think the experiences you are sharing in this matter are precious so
discussion gets just richer.<br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
I recall a counter example of the million objects was to split the data
objects into 10,000 chunks. However, that's a different problem not the
one that I have to deal with. <br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
</div>
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<div>Tying an object instance to a particular process makes no
sense. If you did that you'd likely end up with just as many dead locks
and other concurrency problems since you'd now have message sends to
the object being queued up on the processes input queue. Since
processes could only process on message at a time deadlocks can occur -
plus all kinds of nasty problems resulting from the order of messages
in the queue. (There is a similar nasty problem with the GUI event
processing in VisualAge Smalltalk that leads to very difficult to
diagnose and comprehend concurrency problems). It's a rats maze that's
best to avoid.<br>
<span class="859282918-25102007"> </span><br>
Besides, in some cases an object with multiple threads could respond to
many messages - literally - at the same time given multiple cores. Why
slow down the system by putting all the messages into a single queue
when you don't have to!?<br>
<span class="859282918-25102007"></span></div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">You didn't understand the model I'm
talking about. </font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
That is likely the case. <span class="671454420-25102007"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span> </div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">So I ask you</font> <font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">kindly if you can read my previus emails
where I where I have taken the job of expresing my exploratory thoughts
until reached this model and the speculation about the existence of
this model (consequences). <br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
There are so many emails in this thread please link to the emails you'd
like me to reread. Thanks very much. <br>
<br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></div>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">There isn't such a thing as an object
with multiple trheads. That does not exists in this model. </font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok. I got that. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">It does exists one process per instance
no more no less. </font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
I did get that. Even if you only do that logically you've got serious
problems.<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span> </div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">If you have read where I talk about how
to manage with this model N millon objects with limited hardware</font> <font
color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">and you still found
problems please be my guest to inform me here because I want to know
that as soon as possible.<br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
Yes, I know it's possible for systems like Erlang to have 100,000
virtual processes, aka lightweight threads, that can be in one real
native operating system process or across many native processes. <br>
<br>
Are you saying that you've figured out how to do that with millions of
processes? <br>
<br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></div>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">I think you're thinking about processes
and threads the same way you know them today. </font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
I can easily see such a scenario working and also breaking all over the
place.<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span> </div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Why?</font> </span><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Lets see if this helps you to get the
idea: Desambiguation: for this model I'm talking about process not as
an OS process but as a VM light process which we also use to call them
threads.</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ok.<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">So I'm saying that in this model you have
only one process per instance but that process is not a process that
can have threads belonging to it. </font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
ok.<br>
<br>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">That generates a hell of complexity. <br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
You lost me there. What complexity?<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Does not matter is other model not the
one I'm speculating. (probably one you have imagined before clarifiying
the 1:1 object process thing)</font> <br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
Alan Kay's original work suggested that each object had a process.
There is the logical view and the idealized view. Then there is the
concrete and how to implement things. How one explains things to end
users is often with the idealized view. How one implements is more
often with something that isn't quite the idea. <br>
<br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></div>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">The process I'm saying it's tied to an
instance it's more close to the process word you know from dictionary
plus what you know what an instance is and with the process implemented
by a VM that can balance it across cores.</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
I didn't understand. Please restate. <span class="671454420-25102007"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span> </div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">I restates that N times in my
previus emails being too long. To give you a clue it's about the double
nature I'm saying the object has. An amalgam between object and
process. It's conceptual indissociability. More on those previus emails.</font>
<br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
Alright I'll have to reread the entire thread since no one wants to
clearly state their pov in one email as I attempt to do out of
courtesy. I don't have time to reread the entire thread today though.
(That's why it is a courtesy to repost - it saves your readers time). <br>
<br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></div>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"></span><br>
</div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">I'm not falling in the pitfall of start
trying to parallelize code automagically. This far from it. In fact I
think this is better than that illusion. Every message is guaranteed by
VM to reach it's destination in guaranteed order. Otherwise will be
chaos. And we want an ordered chaos like the one we have now in a
Squeak reified image.</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, squeak is ordered chaos. ;--). <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"></span> </div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Clarified that I ask why do you think
could be deadlocks? and what other kind of concurrency problems do you
think that will this model suffer?</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
If a number of messages are waiting in the input queue of a process
that can only process one message at a time since it's not
multi-threaded then those messages are BLOCKED while in the thread. Now
imagine another process with messages in it's queue that are also
BLOCKED since they are waiting in the queue and only one message can be
processed at a time. Now imagine that process A and process B each have
messages that the other needs before it can proceed but those messages
are BLOCKED waiting for processing in the queues. <br>
<br>
This is a real example of what can happen with message queues. The
order isn't guaranteed. Simple concurrency solutions often have
deadlock scenarios. This can occur when objects must synchronize events
or information. As soon as you have multiple threads of execution
you've got problems that need solving regardless of the concurrency
model in place. <br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> But that can happen right now if you
give a bad use of process in a current Smalltalk. I don't want to solve
deadlocks for anybody using parallelism badly. I just want a Smalltalk
that works like todays but balancing cpu load across cores and scaling
to an arbitrary number of them. All this trhead it's about that.<br>
</font></span></blockquote>
<br>
Yes it can happen now. That's why it's important to actually learn
concurrency control techniques. Books like the Little Book of
Semaphores can help with that learning process. <br>
<br>
The point is that a number of people in this thread are proposing
solutions that seem to claim that these problems magically go away in
some utopian manner with process-based concurrency. All I'm pointing
out is that there isn't a silver bullet or concurrency utopia and now
I'm getting flack for pointing out that non-ignorable reality. So be
it. Those that push ahead are often the ones with many arrows in their
back.<br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"></span><br>
Tying an object's life time to the lifetime of a process doesn't make
sense since there could be references to the object all over the
place. If the process quits the object should still be alive IF there
are still references to it.<br>
</div>
<span class="859282918-25102007"></span>
<div>You'd need to pass around more than references to processes.
For if a process has more than one object you'd not get the resolution
you'd need. No, passing object references around is way better.<br>
<span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><span
class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS"
size="2">Yes</font> <font color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">of
course there will be. In this system a process termination is one of
two things: A) that instance is being reclaimed in a garbage collection
or B) that instance has been written to disk in a kind of hibernation
that can be reified again on demand</font></span><font
face="Trebuchet MS"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">.<span
class="859282918-25102007"> </span><span class="859282918-25102007">Please
refer to my previous post with subject "One Process Per Instance.."
where I talk more about exacly this. <br>
</span></font></font></font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
If all there is is a one object per process and one process per object
- a 1 to 1 mapping then yes gc would work that way but the 1 to 1
mapping isn't likely to ever happen given current and future hardware
prospects. <br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> But Peter don't lower your guard on that
so easy! we know techniques to administer resources like navegating 10
thousand instances at the time a 10 gigas image of 10 million objects!
don't shoot hope before it borns! I talk some details I've imagined
about this in my "One Process Per Instance" post.<br>
</font></span></blockquote>
<br>
Well then you must have a radically different meaning of 1 to 1 object
to process mapping than I have or a radically different implementation
that I've understood from your writings. If you can make it work that
is all the proof that you need, isn't it!?<br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font face="Trebuchet MS"><font
color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span class="859282918-25102007"></span></font></font></font></span><br>
Even if you considered an object as having it's own "logical" process
you'd get into the queuing problems hinted at above.<br>
<span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Which I dont see and I ask your help to
understand if you still find them after the clarifications made about
the model.</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
See the example above. <br>
<br>
<br>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"></span><br>
Besides objects in Smalltalk are really fine grained. The notion that
each object would have it's own thread would require so much thread
switching that no current processor could handle that. It would also be
a huge waste of resources.<br>
</div>
<span class="859282918-25102007"></span>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">And what do you think was going out of
the mouths of criticizers of the initiatives like the park place team
had in 1970's making a Smalltalk with the price of the CPU's and RAM at
that time? that VM's are a smart efficient use of resources?</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
That's not really relevant. If you want to build that please go ahead -
please don't let me stop you, that's the last thing I'd want. I wish
you luck. I get to play with current hardware and hardware that's
coming down the pipe such as the Tile-64 or the newest GPUs when they
are available to the wider market.<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">We all have to use cheap hardware. Please
(re)think about what I said about administering hardware resources over
this model.</font> <br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></div>
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<div><br>
</div>
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<div><span class="859282918-25102007"></span> </div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">So I copy paste myself: "<span
class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS"
size="2">I don't give credit to unfounded apriorisms. It deserves to
be proven that does not work. Anyway let's just assume that may be too
much for state of the art hardware in common computers in year 2007.
What about in 2009? what about in 2012?"</font></span></font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
Well just get out your calculator. There is an overhead to a thread or
process in bytes. Say 512 bytes per thread plus it's stack. There is
the number of objects. Say 1 million for a medium to small image. Now
multiply those and you get 1/2 gigabyte. Oh, we forgot the stack space
and the memory for the objects themselves. Add a multiplier for that,
say 8 and you get 4 gigabytes. Oh, wait we forgot that the stack is
kind weird since as each message send that isn't to self must be an
interprocess or interthread message send you've got some weirdness
going on let along all the thread context switching for each message
send that occurs. Then you've got to add more for who knows what... the
list could go on for quite a bit. It's just mind boggling. <br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">I just can't beleive we really can't find
clever ways of <span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">adminiter resources to the point in which
this becomes acceptable. <br>
</font></span></font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Each thread needs a stack, a stored set of registers. That's at least
two four kilobyte memory pages (one for the stack and one for the
registers) with current hardware assuming your thread is mapped to a
real processor thread of execution at some point. The two pages are
there so that you can have the processor detect if the stack grows
beyond it's four kilobyte page. Now you could pack them into one page
when it's not being executed but that would increase your context
switch time to pack and unpack. If you avoid that and simply use the
same page for both then you're risking having your stack overwrite
memory used for the process/thread which would be unsafe
multi-threading.<br>
<br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"><span class="671454420-25102007"></span></font></span>Maybe
some hardware designers will figure it out. <br>
<br>
However, there is still the worst pitfall of the 1 to 1 mapping of
process to object: that is the overhead of each message send to another
object would require a thread context switch! That's is inescapably
huge.<br>
<br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"><span class="671454420-25102007"></span></font></span></div>
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<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
Simply put current cpu architectures are simply not designed for that
approach. Heck they are even highly incompatible with dynamic message
passing since they favor static code in terms of optimizations. <br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> Yes that happens with machines based on
mathematic models like the boolean model. It injects an inpedance
mismatch between the conceptual modeling and the virtual modeling. <br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAx5oTyKKcHEiH5jLobrYqEMKAAAAQAAAAhozPTNvTZUy+TpA5+5MBtAEAAAAA@seaswork.com"
type="cite">
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"></span><br>
Again, one solution does not fit all problems - if it did programming
would be easier.<br>
<span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">But programming should have to be easier.
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
Yes, I concur, whenever it's possible to do so. But it also shouldn't
ignore the hard problems either. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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type="cite">
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Smalltalk made it easier in a lot of
aspects. </font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sure I concur. That's why I am working here in this group spending time
(is money) on these emails. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
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type="cite">
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Listen.. I'm not a naif silver bullet
purchaser nor a faithful person. I'm a critic Smalltalker that thinks
he gets the point about OOP and tries to find solutions to surpass the
multicore crisis by getting an empowered system not consoling itself
with a weaker one. </font></span><span class="859282918-25102007"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"><br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I do get that about you. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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type="cite">
<div><span class="859282918-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2">Peter please try to forget about how
systems are made and think in how you want to make them.</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><font face="Trebuchet MS"> </font></font></font>
<div><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><font face="Trebuchet MS"><br>
</font></font></font>I do think about how I want to make them.
However to make them I have no choice but to consider how to actually
build them using existing technologies and the coming future
technologies. <br>
<br>
Currently we have 2-core and 4-core processors as the mainstream with
3-core and 8-core coming to a computer store near you. We have the
current crop of GPUs from NVidia that have 128 processing units that
can be programmed in a variant of C for some general purpose program
tasks using a SIMD (single instruction multiple data) format - very
useful for those number crunching applications like graphics,
cryptology and numeric analysis to name just a few. We also have the
general purpose networked Tile-64 coming - lots of general purpose
compute power with an equal amount of scalable networked IO power -
very impressive. Intel even has a prototype with 80-cores that is
similar. Intel also has it's awesomely impressive Itanium processor
with instruction level parallelism as well as multiple cores - just
wait till that's a 128 core beastie. Please there is hardware that we
likely don't know about or that hasn't been invented yet. Please bring
it on!!!<br>
<br>
The bigger problem is that in order to build real systems I need to
think about how they are constructed. <br>
<br>
So yes, I want easy parallel computing but it's just a harsh reality
that concurrency, synchronization, distributed processing, and other
advanced topics are not always easy or possible to simplify as much as
we try to want them to be. That is the nature of computers. <br>
<br>
Sorry for being a visionary-realist. Sorry if I've sounded like the
critic. I don't mean to be the critic that kills your dreams - if I've
done that I apologize. I've simply meant to be the realist who informs
the visionary that certain adjustments are needed.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> Please take your time to think about
what I've stated of administering resources being possible to manage
load of millions of instances by a swarm of a few at the time. And
don't be sorry of anything. I love criticism. Our culture need tons of
criticism to be stronger. It's the only way we can unistall deprecated
or obsolete ideas. You are helping here. If I really dreaming an this
don't work I want that <br>
dream to be kill now so I can spend my time in something better. That
helps.<br>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well having loads of millions of instances managed by a swarm of them
at once is what I was assuming. In fact Linux does this (well for
thousands not millions anyway). It turns out that Intel's X86/IA32
architecture can only handle 4096 threads in hardware. What Linux did
was virtualize them so that only one hardware thread was used for the
active thread (per core I would assume). This allowed Linux to avoid
the glass ceiling of 4096 threads. However, there are limits due to the
overhead of context switching time and the overhead of space that each
thread - even with a minimal stack as would be the case with the model
you are proposing might have. It's just too onerous for practical use. <br>
<br>
Unless you are doing something radically different that I don't
understand that is. <br>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><br>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></div>
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<div><span class="671454420-25102007"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Trebuchet MS" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<span class="671454420-25102007"></span></blockquote>
<blockquote
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class="671454420-25102007"></span>
<div><span class="671454420-25102007"></span><font face="Trebuchet MS"><font
color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span class="671454420-25102007"> By </span><span
class="671454420-25102007"> now this model it's just getting
stronger. Please try to get it down !!! :)))<br>
</span></font></font></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I though I crushed it already!!! ;--)<br>
<br>
Certainly until you can provide a means for it to handle the one
million data objects across 10,000 processes with edits going to the
10,000 processes plus partial object graph seeding (and any object on
demand) to them and end up with one and a half million output objects
with the total number of interconnections increased by 70% I'll
consider it crushed. ;--)<br>
<br>
Forward to the future - to infinity and beyond with real hardware!<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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