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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012-12-20 2:23 PM, Benoit St-Jean
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1356031420.31416.YahooMailNeo@web161305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">FYI, I did post my
remarks/concerns on the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists regarding
this subject a year ago but it just seems like nobody read or
did care.<br>
<br>
Secondly, as I said, a year ago, we should definitely have
*separate* code repositories for Squeak and Pharo. I just
closed Squeak 30 seconds ago, being totally fed up with packages
that wouldn't load... Right now, both environments are
polluting the code of the other and it's nonsense... You know
the kind of horror story where version 7 (Squeak) fixes version
6 (Pharo) that now became version 8 (Pharo again) but that will
be fixed as a combo of version 6 and 8 for Squeak?<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes, I agree. It's a problem. And all the points you make are valid.
And this time, thank you, you came up with some examples with things
examples you like and would like to see. Others reading this will
find that useful for the process of finding a solution. <br>
<br>
I will say this, though. Sometimes, it's not as easy as it seems. By
that I mean there can be a technical solution available that people
do not want to use. They just don't like it: the interface; the
experience; the process, whatever. That's SqueakMap. When the
SqueakMap advocate shows up the first thing he will say is:
"SqueakMap solves all those problems. It does all that." And you
know what, he has a point. <br>
<br>
But if people don't want to use it... You see, Benoit, the problem
is less about code and about something else. But smart are people
thinking about this. They want a solution too. <br>
<br>
Chris <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1356031420.31416.YahooMailNeo@web161305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Can't we have something
simple like the Cincom Public Repository ???<br>
<br>
Could you commit Ruby code to the CRAN (Comprehensive R Arcive
Network) ? No! You know why? Those are 2 different beasts,
just like Squeak and Pharo. And seeing at which speed Pharo is
moving away from "standard" (for lack of a better word)
Smalltalk, this "problem will happen more and more and more.<br>
<br>
How useful is Squeak if all the code available is slowly
becoming "Pharo-only friendly" ?<br>
<br>
In other words, we should setup our *own* SQUEAK ONLY
repository, make sure people set a "platform target" (say Squeak
4.4 or 4.3) for migration (and tell the project owners that they
should make an effort to port their code to Squeak 4.x) and
start from there...<br>
<br>
Now, try to imagine a newbie who's trying to load a single
package (say ODBC), connect to a database, select one row and
experiment with Smalltalk... Oh, wait! ScriptLoader loadFFi
doesn't work! Oh wait! I read on the wiki that I had to compile
the fields for ExternalStructure by hand because of a bug... Oh
wait, the ODBCEnh contains Pharo stuff... Oh wait, Package X
contains references to stuff that is "Pharo only". Oh wait,
I'll use this other tool... Nah, contains Pharo stuff again...
I'll then use package Y then... Oh wait, what's that Zinc stuff
? Well, I guess you get the picture...<br>
<br>
Now, compare this with VisualWorks and the Cincom Public
Repository... Connect, load, done.<br>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----------------<br>
Benoit St-Jean<br>
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>
(Albert Einstein)<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);
margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Chris Cunnington
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com"><smalltalktelevision@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:06:36 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div id="yiv1696467670">
<div>
<div class="yiv1696467670moz-cite-prefix">On
2012-12-20 12:25 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">
<div><span>How useful... This is the kind of
stuff that makes me wanna shout!<br>
</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span><complaint></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>I just installed
Squeak 4.3 to migrate some code I had on an
older Squeak 4.x image...</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>Loaded some of
the tools I use, like ScriptManager to
realize... That the newest versions are for
Pharo! With references to stuff that doesn't
exist in Squeak. <br>
</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>In other words,
the more commits to existing project in
Squeaksource (or anywhere else where the
code used to be "Squeak friendly" and/or
developed for Squeak in the first place) the
Pharo people do, the less and less those
projects will work with Squeak!</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>It's just as if
Volkswagen would take over the manufacturing
of parts for Honda and would adapt all parts
for THEIR engines... If I have a Honda,
what can I do? :( <br>
</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>With Pharo moving
away from Squeak (and most other Smalltalks
in fact), if we don't find a way to clearly
split what is "Pharo friendly" from what is
"Squeak friendly" (I resisted using the word
"compatible"), where are we heading ???</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span></complaint></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>P.S. This is
going to be a nightmare if we don't act
before the Pharo people have "adapted" tons
of stuff to *their* environment...<br>
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----------------<br>
Benoit St-Jean<br>
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of
radius zero.<br>
(Albert Einstein)<br>
</div>
</div>
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Yea, it's an interesting point. I hear you shouting,
but who are you shouting to? You've found a problem,
and somebody™ is supposed to solve if for you. Is
that correct? Who? <br>
<br>
I'm on the Squeak Board and from my point of view,
you're observation would be more compelling if you
proposed a solution to what you've discovered. If
you just say it's a problem and somebody™ should fix
it, I'm not that interested. Especially when you
cannot even take the time to think of a few criteria
of the problem that may be used to fix it. <br>
<br>
Here's what I can tell you. Squeak infrastructure is
not responsible for every project in existence.
You're first solution would be to talk to the
maintainers of that project. None of the maintainers
of ScriptManager are Squeakers. Might that tell you
something? <br>
<br>
<pre style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-align:justify;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="yiv1696467670moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager">http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager</a></pre>
<br>
The Squeak Board is in the process of looking at
this issue, though. And I can say what is on the
horizon. The first thing we will have is community
supported packages tested regularly in images in the
Squeak CI server. There will be a list of packages,
a top twenty list, say, of packages that will be
known to be the responsibility of the community. <br>
<br>
Now, wouldn't it be good if there was something like
SqueakMap, something separate from Squeaksource and
SqueakSource3, that was a Squeak-only location for
packages? They you'd know that you had come to the
right "app store". We're working on that too. But I
don't think it will be SqueakMap, which in my
opinion has run its course. So were looking at this
issue. But SqueakMap is a contentious issue. Very
contentious. There are those who would like to put a
stick of dynamite in it. And those who get extremely
incensed at even the thought. (Actually, even the
word, in public, like I just did. Counting down in
... four...three ... two...oh, look!) <br>
<br>
So, we're looking at that. And in the near future,
say Squeak 4.5, there will be better guidelines
around these problems. <br>
<br>
You could load the same packages into the new
Squeak4.3 that you loaded before. If you want the
latest Squeak in addition to the latest versions of
the packages, well, then I think you may need to do
some work. And when the infrastructure I just
described is in place, there will most certainly be
packages that, all that new infrastructure
notwithstanding, will be nobody's responsibility but
yours and the actual package developer. <br>
<br>
Chris <br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
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