<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">You know what I like about CRAN (Comprehensive R Archive Network) or RAA (Ruby Application Archive) and so many other repositories ? If I'm looking for a R library, I have to go to ONE place. If I'm looking for Ruby code, I have to go to ONE place. If I'm looking for VisualWorks code, I have to go to ONE place.<br><br>What prevents us from doing the same ?<br><div><span><br></span></div><div> </div><div>-----------------<br>Benoit St-Jean<br>Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>(Albert Einstein)<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size:
12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Benoit St-Jean <bstjean@yahoo.com>; The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:00:49 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br> </font> </div> <br>On 20 December 2012 19:52, Benoit St-Jean <<a ymailto="mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com" href="mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com">bstjean@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>> Hi Frank,<br>><br>> That's another problem.<br>><br>> Let's say I'm a newbie.<br>><br>> I quickly download a pdf, play with Colletion examples, then Date, then<br>> Integer, then Stream,
etc...<br>><br>> Now, I feel like I want to experiment...<br>><br>> Where do I get Squeak code from?<br>><br>> Universes? Gofer? Monticello? SqueakMap? Metacello? Squeaksource?<br>> Squeaksource 3? SmalltalkHub? Via ScriptLoader? There are sooooooooooo<br>> many references out on the web to "inform" you on how to get code that, no<br>> wonder, any newbie will give up in 5 minutes if it doesn't load...<br><br>What _should_ happen, and we're not there yet, is you go to SqueakMap<br>and, if you can't find a package listed there you hunt down the person<br>responsible and nag them until it _is_ there.<br><br>You shouldn't have know or care whether a project's hosted on<br>SqueakSource or SS3 or GitHub.<br><br>frank<br><br>> What I like about the Cincom Repository is that :<br>><br>> 1) ONE repository, not many (or even worse, many ways)<br>> 2) the code is VisualWorks
only<br>> 3) EVERYTHING is in one place, it's all there<br>> 4) process is simple : connect, load, done.<br>><br>><br>> -----------------<br>> Benoit St-Jean<br>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>> (Albert Einstein)<br>><br>> ________________________________<br>> From: Frank Shearar <<a ymailto="mailto:frank.shearar@gmail.com" href="mailto:frank.shearar@gmail.com">frank.shearar@gmail.com</a>><br>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<br>> <<a ymailto="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org" href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>><br>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:35:19 PM<br>><br>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br>><br>> On 20 December 2012 19:31, Chris Cunnington<br>> <<a ymailto="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com"
href="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com">smalltalktelevision@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> On 2012-12-20 2:23 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:<br>>><br>>> FYI, I did post my remarks/concerns on the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists<br>>> regarding this subject a year ago but it just seems like nobody read or<br>>> did<br>>> care.<br>>><br>>> Secondly, as I said, a year ago, we should definitely have *separate* code<br>>> repositories for Squeak and Pharo. I just closed Squeak 30 seconds ago,<br>>> being totally fed up with packages that wouldn't load... Right now, both<br>>> environments are polluting the code of the other and it's nonsense... You<br>>> know the kind of horror story where version 7 (Squeak) fixes version 6<br>>> (Pharo) that now became version 8 (Pharo again) but that will be fixed as<br>>> a<br>>> combo of version 6 and 8 for
Squeak?<br>>><br>>> Yes, I agree. It's a problem. And all the points you make are valid. And<br>>> this time, thank you, you came up with some examples with things examples<br>>> you like and would like to see. Others reading this will find that useful<br>>> for the process of finding a solution.<br>>><br>>> I will say this, though. Sometimes, it's not as easy as it seems. By that<br>>> I<br>>> mean there can be a technical solution available that people do not want<br>>> to<br>>> use. They just don't like it: the interface; the experience; the process,<br>>> whatever. That's SqueakMap. When the SqueakMap advocate shows up the first<br>>> thing he will say is: "SqueakMap solves all those problems. It does all<br>>> that." And you know what, he has a point.<br>>><br>>> But if people don't want to use it... You see, Benoit, the problem is less<br>>> about
code and about something else. But smart are people thinking about<br>>> this. They want a solution too.<br>><br>> I think SM's real problem is that everyone forgot about it. And when<br>> someone remembered it (was it Chris Muller?), it looked old and dated.<br>> The idea's sound, the code might need some love, but it _works_. Here,<br>> _today_. Not as shiny as yet another brand new idea to solve an old<br>> problem, maybe. Maybe it needs some love, and a touch of makeup. But<br>> you can go load a few packages right now into your 4.4 image.<br>><br>> frank<br>><br>>> Chris<br>>><br>>> Can't we have something simple like the Cincom Public Repository ???<br>>><br>>> Could you commit Ruby code to the CRAN (Comprehensive R Arcive Network) ?<br>>> No! You know why? Those are 2 different beasts, just like Squeak and<br>>> Pharo. And seeing at which speed Pharo
is moving away from "standard"<br>>> (for<br>>> lack of a better word) Smalltalk, this "problem will happen more and more<br>>> and more.<br>>><br>>> How useful is Squeak if all the code available is slowly becoming<br>>> "Pharo-only friendly" ?<br>>><br>>> In other words, we should setup our *own* SQUEAK ONLY repository, make<br>>> sure<br>>> people set a "platform target" (say Squeak 4.4 or 4.3) for migration (and<br>>> tell the project owners that they should make an effort to port their code<br>>> to Squeak 4.x) and start from there...<br>>><br>>> Now, try to imagine a newbie who's trying to load a single package (say<br>>> ODBC), connect to a database, select one row and experiment with<br>>> Smalltalk... Oh, wait! ScriptLoader loadFFi doesn't work! Oh wait! I<br>>> read<br>>> on the wiki that I had to compile the fields for
ExternalStructure by hand<br>>> because of a bug... Oh wait, the ODBCEnh contains Pharo stuff... Oh<br>>> wait,<br>>> Package X contains references to stuff that is "Pharo only". Oh wait,<br>>> I'll<br>>> use this other tool... Nah, contains Pharo stuff again... I'll then use<br>>> package Y then... Oh wait, what's that Zinc stuff ? Well, I guess you<br>>> get<br>>> the picture...<br>>><br>>> Now, compare this with VisualWorks and the Cincom Public Repository...<br>>> Connect, load, done.<br>>><br>>><br>>> -----------------<br>>> Benoit St-Jean<br>>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>>> (Albert Einstein)<br>>><br>>> ________________________________<br>>> From: Chris Cunnington <<a ymailto="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com"
href="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com">smalltalktelevision@gmail.com</a>><br>>> To: <a ymailto="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org" href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:06:36 PM<br>>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br>>><br>>> On 2012-12-20 12:25 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:<br>>><br>>> How useful... This is the kind of stuff that makes me wanna shout!<br>>><br>>> <complaint><br>>><br>>> I just installed Squeak 4.3 to migrate some code I had on an older Squeak<br>>> 4.x image...<br>>><br>>> Loaded some of the tools I use, like ScriptManager to realize... That the<br>>> newest versions are for Pharo! With references to stuff that doesn't exist<br>>> in Squeak.<br>>><br>>> In other words, the more
commits to existing project in Squeaksource (or<br>>> anywhere else where the code used to be "Squeak friendly" and/or developed<br>>> for Squeak in the first place) the Pharo people do, the less and less<br>>> those<br>>> projects will work with Squeak!<br>>><br>>> It's just as if Volkswagen would take over the manufacturing of parts for<br>>> Honda and would adapt all parts for THEIR engines... If I have a Honda,<br>>> what can I do? :(<br>>><br>>> With Pharo moving away from Squeak (and most other Smalltalks in fact), if<br>>> we don't find a way to clearly split what is "Pharo friendly" from what is<br>>> "Squeak friendly" (I resisted using the word "compatible"), where are we<br>>> heading ???<br>>><br>>> </complaint><br>>><br>>> P.S. This is going to be a nightmare if we don't act before the Pharo<br>>> people have
"adapted" tons of stuff to *their* environment...<br>>><br>>> -----------------<br>>> Benoit St-Jean<br>>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>>> (Albert Einstein)<br>>><br>>><br>>> Yea, it's an interesting point. I hear you shouting, but who are you<br>>> shouting to? You've found a problem, and somebody™ is supposed to solve if<br>>> for you. Is that correct? Who?<br>>><br>>> I'm on the Squeak Board and from my point of view, you're observation<br>>> would<br>>> be more compelling if you proposed a solution to what you've discovered.<br>>> If<br>>> you just say it's a problem and somebody™ should fix it, I'm not that<br>>> interested. Especially when you cannot even take the time to think of a<br>>> few<br>>> criteria of the problem that may be used to fix
it.<br>>><br>>> Here's what I can tell you. Squeak infrastructure is not responsible for<br>>> every project in existence. You're first solution would be to talk to the<br>>> maintainers of that project. None of the maintainers of ScriptManager are<br>>> Squeakers. Might that tell you something?<br>>><br>>> <a href="http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager" target="_blank">http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager</a><br>>><br>>><br>>> The Squeak Board is in the process of looking at this issue, though. And I<br>>> can say what is on the horizon. The first thing we will have is community<br>>> supported packages tested regularly in images in the Squeak CI server.<br>>> There<br>>> will be a list of packages, a top twenty list, say, of packages that will<br>>> be<br>>> known to be the responsibility of the community.<br>>><br>>> Now, wouldn't it
be good if there was something like SqueakMap, something<br>>> separate from Squeaksource and SqueakSource3, that was a Squeak-only<br>>> location for packages? They you'd know that you had come to the right "app<br>>> store". We're working on that too. But I don't think it will be SqueakMap,<br>>> which in my opinion has run its course. So were looking at this issue. But<br>>> SqueakMap is a contentious issue. Very contentious. There are those who<br>>> would like to put a stick of dynamite in it. And those who get extremely<br>>> incensed at even the thought. (Actually, even the word, in public, like I<br>>> just did. Counting down in ... four...three ... two...oh, look!)<br>>><br>>> So, we're looking at that. And in the near future, say Squeak 4.5, there<br>>> will be better guidelines around these problems.<br>>><br>>> You could load the same packages into the new
Squeak4.3 that you loaded<br>>> before. If you want the latest Squeak in addition to the latest versions<br>>> of<br>>> the packages, well, then I think you may need to do some work. And when<br>>> the<br>>> infrastructure I just described is in place, there will most certainly be<br>>> packages that, all that new infrastructure notwithstanding, will be<br>>> nobody's<br>>> responsibility but yours and the actual package developer.<br>>><br>>> Chris<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></body></html>