<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Hi Frank,<br><br>That's another problem.<br><br>Let's say I'm a newbie.<br><br>I quickly download a pdf, play with Colletion examples, then Date, then Integer, then Stream, etc...<br><br>Now, I feel like I want to experiment...<br><br>Where do I get Squeak code from?<br><br>Universes? Gofer? Monticello? SqueakMap? Metacello? Squeaksource? Squeaksource 3? SmalltalkHub? Via ScriptLoader? There are sooooooooooo many references out on the web to "inform" you on how to get code that, no wonder, any newbie will give up in 5 minutes if it doesn't load...<br><br>What I like about the Cincom Repository is that :<br><br>1) ONE repository, not many (or even worse, many ways)<br>2) the code is VisualWorks only<br>3) EVERYTHING is in one place, it's all there<br>4) process is simple : connect, load,
done.<br><div><span><br></span></div><div> </div><div>-----------------<br>Benoit St-Jean<br>Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>(Albert Einstein)<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The general-purpose Squeak developers list <squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:35:19 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [squeak-dev]
Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br> </font> </div> <br>On 20 December 2012 19:31, Chris Cunnington<br><<a ymailto="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com" href="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com">smalltalktelevision@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> On 2012-12-20 2:23 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:<br>><br>> FYI, I did post my remarks/concerns on the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists<br>> regarding this subject a year ago but it just seems like nobody read or did<br>> care.<br>><br>> Secondly, as I said, a year ago, we should definitely have *separate* code<br>> repositories for Squeak and Pharo. I just closed Squeak 30 seconds ago,<br>> being totally fed up with packages that wouldn't load... Right now, both<br>> environments are polluting the code of the other and it's nonsense... You<br>> know the kind of horror story where version 7 (Squeak) fixes version 6<br>> (Pharo) that now became version 8 (Pharo
again) but that will be fixed as a<br>> combo of version 6 and 8 for Squeak?<br>><br>> Yes, I agree. It's a problem. And all the points you make are valid. And<br>> this time, thank you, you came up with some examples with things examples<br>> you like and would like to see. Others reading this will find that useful<br>> for the process of finding a solution.<br>><br>> I will say this, though. Sometimes, it's not as easy as it seems. By that I<br>> mean there can be a technical solution available that people do not want to<br>> use. They just don't like it: the interface; the experience; the process,<br>> whatever. That's SqueakMap. When the SqueakMap advocate shows up the first<br>> thing he will say is: "SqueakMap solves all those problems. It does all<br>> that." And you know what, he has a point.<br>><br>> But if people don't want to use it... You see, Benoit, the problem is less<br>> about code and
about something else. But smart are people thinking about<br>> this. They want a solution too.<br><br>I think SM's real problem is that everyone forgot about it. And when<br>someone remembered it (was it Chris Muller?), it looked old and dated.<br>The idea's sound, the code might need some love, but it _works_. Here,<br>_today_. Not as shiny as yet another brand new idea to solve an old<br>problem, maybe. Maybe it needs some love, and a touch of makeup. But<br>you can go load a few packages right now into your 4.4 image.<br><br>frank<br><br>> Chris<br>><br>> Can't we have something simple like the Cincom Public Repository ???<br>><br>> Could you commit Ruby code to the CRAN (Comprehensive R Arcive Network) ?<br>> No! You know why? Those are 2 different beasts, just like Squeak and<br>> Pharo. And seeing at which speed Pharo is moving away from "standard" (for<br>> lack of a better word) Smalltalk, this
"problem will happen more and more<br>> and more.<br>><br>> How useful is Squeak if all the code available is slowly becoming<br>> "Pharo-only friendly" ?<br>><br>> In other words, we should setup our *own* SQUEAK ONLY repository, make sure<br>> people set a "platform target" (say Squeak 4.4 or 4.3) for migration (and<br>> tell the project owners that they should make an effort to port their code<br>> to Squeak 4.x) and start from there...<br>><br>> Now, try to imagine a newbie who's trying to load a single package (say<br>> ODBC), connect to a database, select one row and experiment with<br>> Smalltalk... Oh, wait! ScriptLoader loadFFi doesn't work! Oh wait! I read<br>> on the wiki that I had to compile the fields for ExternalStructure by hand<br>> because of a bug... Oh wait, the ODBCEnh contains Pharo stuff... Oh wait,<br>> Package X contains references to stuff that is
"Pharo only". Oh wait, I'll<br>> use this other tool... Nah, contains Pharo stuff again... I'll then use<br>> package Y then... Oh wait, what's that Zinc stuff ? Well, I guess you get<br>> the picture...<br>><br>> Now, compare this with VisualWorks and the Cincom Public Repository...<br>> Connect, load, done.<br>><br>><br>> -----------------<br>> Benoit St-Jean<br>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>> (Albert Einstein)<br>><br>> ________________________________<br>> From: Chris Cunnington <<a ymailto="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com" href="mailto:smalltalktelevision@gmail.com">smalltalktelevision@gmail.com</a>><br>> To: <a ymailto="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org" href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a><br>> Sent: Thursday, December 20,
2012 1:06:36 PM<br>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br>><br>> On 2012-12-20 12:25 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:<br>><br>> How useful... This is the kind of stuff that makes me wanna shout!<br>><br>> <complaint><br>><br>> I just installed Squeak 4.3 to migrate some code I had on an older Squeak<br>> 4.x image...<br>><br>> Loaded some of the tools I use, like ScriptManager to realize... That the<br>> newest versions are for Pharo! With references to stuff that doesn't exist<br>> in Squeak.<br>><br>> In other words, the more commits to existing project in Squeaksource (or<br>> anywhere else where the code used to be "Squeak friendly" and/or developed<br>> for Squeak in the first place) the Pharo people do, the less and less those<br>> projects will work with Squeak!<br>><br>> It's just as if Volkswagen would take over the manufacturing of parts for<br>>
Honda and would adapt all parts for THEIR engines... If I have a Honda,<br>> what can I do? :(<br>><br>> With Pharo moving away from Squeak (and most other Smalltalks in fact), if<br>> we don't find a way to clearly split what is "Pharo friendly" from what is<br>> "Squeak friendly" (I resisted using the word "compatible"), where are we<br>> heading ???<br>><br>> </complaint><br>><br>> P.S. This is going to be a nightmare if we don't act before the Pharo<br>> people have "adapted" tons of stuff to *their* environment...<br>><br>> -----------------<br>> Benoit St-Jean<br>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>> (Albert Einstein)<br>><br>><br>> Yea, it's an interesting point. I hear you shouting, but who are you<br>> shouting to? You've found a problem, and somebody™ is supposed to solve if<br>> for you. Is that
correct? Who?<br>><br>> I'm on the Squeak Board and from my point of view, you're observation would<br>> be more compelling if you proposed a solution to what you've discovered. If<br>> you just say it's a problem and somebody™ should fix it, I'm not that<br>> interested. Especially when you cannot even take the time to think of a few<br>> criteria of the problem that may be used to fix it.<br>><br>> Here's what I can tell you. Squeak infrastructure is not responsible for<br>> every project in existence. You're first solution would be to talk to the<br>> maintainers of that project. None of the maintainers of ScriptManager are<br>> Squeakers. Might that tell you something?<br>><br>> <a href="http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager" target="_blank">http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager</a><br>><br>><br>> The Squeak Board is in the process of looking at this issue, though. And I<br>> can say what
is on the horizon. The first thing we will have is community<br>> supported packages tested regularly in images in the Squeak CI server. There<br>> will be a list of packages, a top twenty list, say, of packages that will be<br>> known to be the responsibility of the community.<br>><br>> Now, wouldn't it be good if there was something like SqueakMap, something<br>> separate from Squeaksource and SqueakSource3, that was a Squeak-only<br>> location for packages? They you'd know that you had come to the right "app<br>> store". We're working on that too. But I don't think it will be SqueakMap,<br>> which in my opinion has run its course. So were looking at this issue. But<br>> SqueakMap is a contentious issue. Very contentious. There are those who<br>> would like to put a stick of dynamite in it. And those who get extremely<br>> incensed at even the thought. (Actually, even the word, in public, like I<br>> just did.
Counting down in ... four...three ... two...oh, look!)<br>><br>> So, we're looking at that. And in the near future, say Squeak 4.5, there<br>> will be better guidelines around these problems.<br>><br>> You could load the same packages into the new Squeak4.3 that you loaded<br>> before. If you want the latest Squeak in addition to the latest versions of<br>> the packages, well, then I think you may need to do some work. And when the<br>> infrastructure I just described is in place, there will most certainly be<br>> packages that, all that new infrastructure notwithstanding, will be nobody's<br>> responsibility but yours and the actual package developer.<br>><br>> Chris<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></body></html>