<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I understand your point Ron but how do you handle multi-environment version (Cuis, Pharo, Squeak) of code ? What if PackageX has a version 6 for Squeak, 7 for Cuis and a version 8 for Pharo. Let's say that Package has different bugs on each environment? Are we all gonna be commit-frenzy on top of each other for the same package?<br><div><span><br></span></div><div> </div><div>-----------------<br>Benoit St-Jean<br>Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean<br>A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.<br>(Albert Einstein)<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font
face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ron Teitelbaum <ron@usmedrec.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> juan@jvuletich.org; 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list' <squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org>; 'dimitris chloupis' <thekilon@yahoo.co.uk> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 21, 2012 4:58:07 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="yiv1712571373"><style><!--
#yiv1712571373
_filtered #yiv1712571373 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
_filtered #yiv1712571373 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
_filtered #yiv1712571373 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
_filtered #yiv1712571373 {font-family:Corbel;panose-1:2 11 5 3 2 2 4 2 2 4;}
#yiv1712571373
#yiv1712571373 p.yiv1712571373MsoNormal, #yiv1712571373 li.yiv1712571373MsoNormal, #yiv1712571373 div.yiv1712571373MsoNormal
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}
#yiv1712571373 a:link, #yiv1712571373 span.yiv1712571373MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv1712571373 a:visited, #yiv1712571373 span.yiv1712571373MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv1712571373 p
{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}
#yiv1712571373 p.yiv1712571373MsoAcetate, #yiv1712571373 li.yiv1712571373MsoAcetate, #yiv1712571373 div.yiv1712571373MsoAcetate
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";}
#yiv1712571373 span.yiv1712571373EmailStyle19
{font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}
#yiv1712571373 span.yiv1712571373BalloonTextChar
{font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";}
#yiv1712571373 .yiv1712571373MsoChpDefault
{font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";}
_filtered #yiv1712571373 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
#yiv1712571373 div.yiv1712571373WordSection1
{}
--></style><div><div class="yiv1712571373WordSection1"><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I’m happy with the fragmentation. I wasn’t at the start of this conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it. I agree that the goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving those goals is easier. We are building some new stuff and it seems that selecting the right fork for the right job “may” not have been possible without the split. There are a number of new developments coming, (in the VM, Spoon, Seaside, Cuis, EToys, …) and it’s possible that one big monolithic Squeak may have made it more difficult for all. It seems that we are closer to having split up the components then we had thought. </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I know we cannot make everyone happy. It seems that the starting point which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything else. Let me know if you think that is wrong. If that is true then building Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like something that might help bring the communities back together. Will Github or SmalltalkHub help to accomplish this? If this were a goal would either do more than the other? </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have it work and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed such so that it will load in any fork. Not all packages will load in every fork so knowing which will work beforehand is preferable. VW is different since nobody expects that with some work it will run on Oinq, I mean Cog (my name for the vm didn’t stick). </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter. There seems to be some movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub. Sometimes movement
is preferable to good ideas. If Metacello works for Squeak and will work with SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a boost? If Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?</span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some similar tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the entire Smalltalk community.</span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">All the best,</span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Corbel", "sans-serif";color:#4F81BD;">Ron Teitelbaum</span></b></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Head Of Engineering</span></i></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting</span></b></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ron@3dicc.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:ron@3dicc.com">ron@3dicc.com</a></span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Follow Me On Twitter: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum">@RonTeitelbaum</a></span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.3dicc.com/">www.3dicc.com</a> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/posts">3d ICC on G+</a></span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></div><div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";"> squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Juan Vuletich (mail lists)<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and
Pharo..</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"> </div><div>Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html">http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html</a> .</div><div>Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used to that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe you can help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Juan Vuletich</div><div>Quoting dimitris chloupis <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thekilon@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:thekilon@yahoo.co.uk">thekilon@yahoo.co.uk</a>>:</div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-family:"Arial",
"sans-serif";color:black;">Thank you. I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How compatible is Cuis to Squeak ? </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk (pharo) project which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a backup plan.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit pull rm add .</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div
class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a beginner, there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is Cuis, etc etc</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some people this kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally try find ways to make things work together. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on Squeak too. I love smalltalk I wish I
had discovered it earlier. But better late than never I guess :D</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_183" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:juanlists@jvuletich.org" target="_blank"
href="mailto:juanlists@jvuletich.org">juanlists@jvuletich.org</a>><br><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_185" style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";">To:</span></b> dimitris chloupis <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thekilon@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:thekilon@yahoo.co.uk">thekilon@yahoo.co.uk</a>>; The general-purpose Squeak developers list <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>> <br><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_186" style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b> Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33<br><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_187" style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";">Subject:</span></b> Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..</span><span
style="color:black;"></span></div></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div><div id="yiv1712571373"><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Hi Dimitris,</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages. We use git as it is intended to be used. This means that we let git handle file versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line terminator. This means that git can diff and merge Cuis packages. For example see </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d">https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d</a> .</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Cheers,</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Juan Vuletich</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">Quoting dimitris chloupis <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thekilon@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:thekilon@yahoo.co.uk">thekilon@yahoo.co.uk</a>>:</span></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will be dead. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I was a python developer. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">And I love squeak too.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved by smalltalk. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of ruby and python projects, js and many more.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense intended but definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer.
</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies, but is hard to abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects and support the smalltalk solutions instead. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its hard to compete with products that are designed full time by big teams and matured through thousands of use cases. </span></div></div><div><div
class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">My vote goes to Github. </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_217" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";color:black;"> Göran Krampe <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:goran@krampe.se" target="_blank" href="mailto:goran@krampe.se">goran@krampe.se</a>><br><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_219" style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";">To:</span></b> The general-purpose Squeak developers list <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org">squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org</a>> <br><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_220" style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14<br><b><span class="yui_3_7_2_19_1356122996075_221" style="font-family:"Arial", "sans-serif";">Subject:</span></b> Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..</span><span
style="color:black;"></span></div></div><div class="yiv1712571373MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style="color:black;"><br>Hi folks!<br><br>As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays both Squeaker and Pharooner) and also involved in some other related projects (SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of some interest.<br><br>First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but we have both historic and technical differences at play. Some things worth noting:<br><br>- SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package *catalog*. It is not a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from the very beginning.<br><br>- Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but when Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it would deminish SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over" several "catalog" aspects. I was right unfortunately, but at the same time SS was great and has served us
very well in its own right.<br><br>- Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't have that amount of free time anymore.<br><br>- SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.<br><br>- Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these days for SCM and package loading. Metacello took the whole dependencies/tagging/releases issue and simply rode on MC to solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex but it's mostly some line noise - it is not that complicated.<br><br>- This also means that for a very, very long time package management and source code management will be forever "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world. Personally I say - fine! Again, let's just embrace it and go.<br><br>- The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just code" and can offer functionality totally independent of the hosting platform for MC. So it doesn't matter if you load a Metacello configuration from a website, from SS or SS3 or
Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!<br><br>- Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I haven't tried, but I presume Metacello works or is very close to working?<br><br>- Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice system AND there is also an image side client tool brewing for it! This means the equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader will be easy to build in Squeak for Smalltalkhub.<br><br><br>So my advice would be:<br><br>1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we get ready to ditch it. Really.<br><br>2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and Metacello for Squeak. Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello even if it does look a bit complex to begin with. There are lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to just copy from. I have written two configurations these last two days and "the shit works". Good work Dale! :)<br><br>3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it
work fine for Squeak, note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not Pharohub! Don't set up your own unless for some odd reason Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns it into "Pharohub".<br><br>Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid architecture, really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish features and bloody hell, I mean, it can show diffs right there in the browser!<br><br>Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding fun is rated A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better, better. I think it should be seen as a unifying playground and Metacello as the "glue" that makes it possible to have projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many functions for EXACTLY that.<br><br>Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the Squeak community should do so too. If the Squeak community can ride a bit on the momentum in Pharo - there is really no reason not to.<br><br>regards,
Göran<br><br><br></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br><br><br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></body></html>