<div dir="ltr">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Bert Freudenberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bert@freudenbergs.de" target="_blank">bert@freudenbergs.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Giving this thread a proper subject (and one further comment below).</div>
<div><br></div><div>On 2013-05-24, at 11:43, Bert Freudenberg <<a href="mailto:bert@freudenbergs.de" target="_blank">bert@freudenbergs.de</a>> wrote:</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><div>On 2013-05-23, at 21:35, Chris Muller <<a href="mailto:asqueaker@gmail.com" target="_blank">asqueaker@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">>> Bert, could you please explain why you want this?<br>
><br>> Cmd-0 is supposed to make something into plain text. Colored text is not plain text.<div><br></div><div>Look at the consecutive key-sequence across the top-row of the keyboard. In order from left-to-right we have:<br>
</div><div><br></div><div> Command+7 = Bold, no color change<br></div><div> Command+8 = Italicize, no color change</div><div> Command+9 = Kern, no color change</div><div> Command+0 = Normalize, <font color="#ff0000">PLUS</font> <font color="#00ff00">a</font> <font color="#0000ff">color</font> <font color="#ff00ff">change</font>!</div>
<div> Command+_ = Underline, no color change</div><div> Command+= = Strikeout, no color change.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Now you're being ridiculous:</div><div><br></div><div>Command+6 = Color, no underline change</div>
<div><div dir="ltr"><div>Command+7 = Bold, no underline change<br>Command+8 = Italicize, no underline change<br>Command+9 = Kern, no underline change<br>Command+0 = Normalize, <u>PLUS</u> an <u>underline</u> change!<br>Command+_ = Underline change<br>
Command+= = Strikeout, no underline change<br><br></div><div>Outrageous ;)</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Your list is not analogous to mine.</div><div style><br>
</div><div style>I do indeed regard color as a <u>more-general</u> form of emphasis than italics. Any kind of informational object such as a line or chart can have color, but only Text can be italicized, underlined or struckout. Previously, all of Cmd+7 thru Cmd+= only affected Text-specific emphasis. Now, one of them also changes color.</div>
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<blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>I think Command+6 should be the universal, one-stop, "Text Colorization" / "Decolorization" function and leave the rest of it elegantly consistent by operating solely on emphasis attributes.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The new Cmd+0 affects the gesture-usage of the system too. Before, all combinations of going <u>from</u> any <i>format+color</i> <u>to</u> any another other <i>format+color</i> utilized a consistent sequence of gestures. Now, we have an exceptional case for removing emphasis from colored text (e.g., going from Bold+Red to Normal+Red).</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You seem to think of color as something special. I don't. It's just another way to make text fancy, instead of plain. Cmd-0 is intended to make text plain.</div></div></div></blockquote>
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<div><b>Question</b>: How will users keep the same custom-color when all they want to do is remove an underline? </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just like you do it in all other text editors: toggle underlining on and off: hit "Cmd _" twice.</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>For some reason, I thought the toggling was broken -- that Cmd+7 would only <b>add</b> bold, not remove it. I just tried it again and, it worked. So, the situation is not as bad as I thought.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Still, the idempotent property of setting emphasis is now broken for colored text. Not a huge deal, but still a downgrade.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>This use-case is now very difficult for the user if not impossible.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Huh?</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>>> It's already so easy to switch text color to black: Command+6 + Enter.<br>
</div><div>><br>> Sure, but I don't normally want to set the text to black. I want to make it plain.<br>
<br>Ok, how about adding "default color" to the Alt+6 menu then? Or, how about an alternate key-sequence for "Normalize + Decolorize"? Shift+Command+0 is available! This would be perfect compromise.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No. A more special operation should have a more complicated shortcut. "Remove all embellishments" is more general than "remove all embellishments but preserve colorization", so if you really need that special mode, that could be your new shortcut. </div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I can see the root of our disagreement lies in our regard whether color is an equal-footing embellishment as the text-specific embellishments (italics/underline/strikeout/bold) on the hot-keys. At least I <u>understand</u> your POV now, I'm glad it's slightly less ridiculous than I thought. :)</div>
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<blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>>> Isn't that easy enough without making it impossible for folks writing<br>>> documents in Squeak that contain colored text?<br>
><br>> Don't use Cmd-0 if you want to use text containing different colors. It's *supposed* to make the whole selection look uniform.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But what <u>do</u> I use now if want to maintain different colors but just want to remove <i><font color="#674ea7"><u style="font-weight:bold">em</u><b>pha</b>sis</font></i>? To do that before, it was the same consistent gesture-sequence as anything else. Command+0, Command+6, Enter. Done. Now that's broken, especially for custom-colors.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But then you would need many more command sequences:</div><div><br></div><div>a) remove all text attributes except color</div><div>b) remove all text attributes except underlines/strikethrough</div>
<div>c) remove all text attributes except bold/italic</div><div>... etc ...</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>I don't get this, but, whatever.. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br></div><div>This is obviously ridiculous. I just don't see why you think text color is so special that it needs to be treated completely differently than all the other text attributes.</div>
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<div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>> For a differently-colored background plain text should be displayed in color possibly different from black, I agree. But that color should *not* be encoded in the text itself, it should be a property of its display container, the one providing the background color.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>I'm on-board with having a "nil" color as a text that causes it to render in whatever it's container says it should and having a gesture to set it such. Glad we agree about that.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Would you please compromise with me -- it seems the shift key is used as an "enhanced" version of several hot-key functions throughout the system, and so Shift+Command+0 to inject the decolorization and leaving original Command+0 to remain consistent with [7] thru [=] to only remove emphasis, seems ideal, what do you think?</div>
</div></blockquote><br></div><div>As I tried to explained above the only consistent way is for CMD-0 to remove all these text attribute. You're welcome to add "remove-all-but-color" as a special operation. I have *never* needed that, but I always was annoyed when I wanted to remove style, e.g. because a class comment was saved as all-red. </div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div style>Again, if you want to modify color, then invoke the color-modifying operation (Cmd+6), not an emphasis-modifying operation. The comment might have had something <u>underlined</u> and so you just blew that away when all you said you wanted to do was remove the <font color="#ff0000">red</font>.<br>
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<div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>Seriously, I don't even understand how you could think this is controversial. Removing all text attributes *obviously* should remove text colors.</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Since the toggling works afterall, it's not controversial, but a downgrade because I see Cmd-0 now as inconsistent treatment of the text compared to the other emphases operations.</div>
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Also, Chris, please read the command-key help, which explicitly states that Cmd-0 is intended to reset all Cmd-6 properties. I merely fixed a bug. It is unfortunate that you learned to rely on the buggy behavior. But I'm sure you're a great learner :)</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I had already read it and determined that's where the "fix" should have been applied rather than in the behavior. Our decisions as a community are based on current, logical discussions like this one to determine which is wrong, not old documentation.</div>
<div style></div></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra" style> - Chris</div><div class="gmail_extra" style><br></div></div>