<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:goran@krampe.se" target="_blank">goran@krampe.se</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Igor and all!<br>
<br>
On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:<br>
[SNIP]<div class="im"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell,<br>
we even share the VM!<br>
<br>
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been<br>
for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has<br>
been done through Newspeakish money, right?<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I<br>
first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form<br>
there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create<br>
Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog.<br>
In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at<br>
Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement<br>
systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no<br>
Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed<br>
or reliable.<br>
<br>
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community<br>
will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is<br>
definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.<br>
<br>
<br>
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not<br>
(clearly it is).<br>
The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.<br>
(else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).<br>
So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run<br>
and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk<br>
projects under ESUG umbrella?<br>
</blockquote>
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Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO.<br>
<br>
Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk!<br>
<br>
And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"?<br>
<br>
And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit!<br>
<br>
Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div><br>Nothing philosophical here.<br>
<div>Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language.<br></div>Different syntax, different semantics.<br></div><div>The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference.<br>
</div><div>There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms.<br></div><div>Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?<br>
</div><div> </div>And let me be clear: i am not against Newspeak or any other language or person(s) who invested a lot into it and keep investing. They are doing good things in exploring and pushing forward original ideas and enriching our computing world.<br>
</div>But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line.<br clear="all"></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>-- <br>Best regards,<br>Igor Stasenko.
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