<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 19, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Chris Cunnington <<a href="mailto:brasspen@gmail.com" class="">brasspen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Dec 19, 2014, at 6:50 PM, David T. Lewis <<a href="mailto:lewis@mail.msen.com" class="">lewis@mail.msen.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:06:38PM +0100, Herbert K??nig wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi,<br class="">Am 19.12.2014 um 22:18 schrieb Chris Muller:<br class="">snip..<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">The audience I want to include into the Squeak community are not just<br class="">developers but "users" too.<br class=""></blockquote>...snip<br class="">considering myself a Squeak user I theoretically see the benefits of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">environments, but assume I'll rarely need them. So yes, leave them in.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></blockquote><br class="">+1<br class=""><br class="">I don't know how much I will make use of Environments, but from everything<br class="">that I have read and seen, this is a simple and intelligently designed<br class="">approach to the problem. I also recall that it was enthusiastically supported<br class="">by Andreas Raab, which to me is a very strong endorsement of the approach.<br class=""><br class="">My sense is that Environments is 98% done. We should make every effort to<br class="">ensure that the last 2% gets finished, and that the Environments system is<br class="">put to some good use. By that I a mean a working example of using it in<br class="">some useful way, no matter how big or how small.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Besides being helpful when using foreign libraries I too use some names<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">only to avoid conflict with existing classes.<br class=""><br class="">Practically only this week on the newbies list two people have been<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">bitten by the fact that environments broke project save and this hasn't<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">been fixed.<br class="">I remember other people stumbling over this before and I keep using 4.4<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">for development and only use 4.5 for deployment because I use projects<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">for documentation.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I think you are exactly right. And IIUC, the issues with project save are<br class="">related to a short list of issues that Levente has been identifying. Sorry<br class="">I don't have a link right now, but Levente has been asking for help on this<br class="">for quite a while. So we need to address the "Levente list" of issues and<br class="">get Squeak back to the point where project saving works properly.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">From my point of view, if we could do two things I would be happy:<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">1) Fix the "Levente list" and get project save working. I think that's<br class="">the 2% that still needs to be done for Environments.<br class=""><br class="">2) Use environments for something. Maybe just a hello world example to<br class="">illustrate, or maybe something related to a real project. I don't care<br class="">what it is, I'd just like to have a working example that I can look at<br class="">for reference.<br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I think I’ll be able to offer a simple example sometime in January or February.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">It’ll be a simple versioning system, nothing more complicated than an Array of Environments. </span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I’ll put different versions of SQSqueakApplication (the homepage) in individual Environments and store them in an Array. This would be an elemental versioning system.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Replacing SQSqueakApplication with a variable, I could switch between the versions in the Array to decide which version Altitude serves to the web.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">With a control panel I could choose which one I want. With ALClient I could push source code to the server from my desktop to be compiled in different Environments. Using Altitude’s resource system, I could run all versions on different URIs to see them simultaneously in different tabs .<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Let me try that last sentence again with a bit more editing.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Environments sound grand and sweeping, but I think they could have simpler uses. If I get this running, I’ll post it. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Chris<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">Probably other people will point out that more tool support is needed,<br class="">but personally I would be happy with just these two things.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Craigs approach seems plausible too but it's not yet main Squeak.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I think it is more than just plausible, it is potentially quite revolutionary.<br class="">But is a different set of ideas than Environments, and I don't think that<br class="">either one needs to exclude the other.<br class=""><br class="">Dave<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Cheers,<br class=""><br class="">Herbert</blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>