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<p>Hi Stephen,</p>
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<p>> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">1. There’s a reason views and controllers were initially separated; that reason is reusability and better factoring.</span></p>
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<div>Afaik a good equivalent for that separation in Morphic are morph + model. If you are going to develop a sophisticated UI, you can use the ToolBuilder framework, and your tool will be even decoupled from the UI framework.</div>
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<div>> <span>2. The composite design pattern is a good thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_pattern) and should be applied to everything where one builds trees, such as view hierarchies.</span></div>
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<div>Morphic uses the composite pattern, too, doesn't it? All morphs are nested in each other, beginning at the root morph (the world), and form a big object tree, just like MVC does. Please correct me if I am wrong.</div>
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<div>> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">3. In a good OO framework, the more abstract classes generally have the minimum necessary state (or none at all). Class Morph has 7 instance variables.</span>
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<div>And class View has 13 instance variables. :-) I agree with you that abstract class should not have any unnecessary state, but in fact, graphics aren't a completely abstract domain. A minimum of geometry information
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(bounds) </span>is vital for graphic representation, and some node links (submorphs, owner) are vital, too, for navigating through the Morphic tree. Note that Morph even has a cleaned-up state by extracting all non-crucial fields into the extension object.</div>
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<div>> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">4. The goal of OO design is to reuse specifications across multiple implementations, so why does class Morph rename the usual geometry methods of bounds, extent, width, height, etc. as (e.g.,) morphBounds?</span>
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<div>I'm afraid I don't get your point here. My image does not even know the selector #morphBounds. But #extent, #width, and #height, for example, are derived attributes, which means that an implementor only needs to manipulate the single underlying representation,
which is bounds, in order to adjust all specified attributes.</div>
<div>Are you desiring something like an abstract morph interface that does not yet define core and derived attributes? It's true that Morph is not an abstract class (Morph new openInWorld works like a charm), but in which practical example would you need this?</div>
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<div>> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">It would be really nice to have a simple MVC (and display-list graphics) framework that could be placed on top of several graphics back-ends including BitBLT, OpenGL and HTML5.</span>
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<div>That's an interesting thought! As said above, Morphic is a composite framework, too, so couldn't you start by implementing #printHtmlOn: on Morph, next to #drawOn:? But in practice, I guess your desire would be very hard to achieve because HTML5 is a high-level
OO framework while OpenGL operates on a quite low level. HTML5 is kind of a competing object tree against Morphic, so you could either try to keep two trees in sync or rebuild one of the trees periodically, which would be performance-extensive. For OpenGL,
couldn't something like an OpenGLCanvas be a starting point?</div>
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<div>Best,</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>Von:</b> Squeak-dev <squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org> im Auftrag von Stephen Pope <stephen@heaveneverywhere.com><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 11. Juli 2020 20:02:37<br>
<b>An:</b> The general-purpose Squeak developers list; Discussion of Cuis Smalltalk<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [squeak-dev] We need to talk about graphics</font>
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To put it bluntly: I gave porting old-school MVC to Cuis.<br class="">
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<div class="">[flame on] Morphic is miserable and really needs to be replaced by MVC, though (IMHO).</div>
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<div class="">Why?</div>
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<div class="">1. There’s a reason views and controllers were initially separated; that reason is reusability and better factoring.</div>
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<div class="">2. The composite design pattern is a good thing (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_pattern" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_pattern</a>) and should be applied to everything where one builds trees, such as view hierarchies.
The root view object should not have subviews, the view-composite should. (I know that old-school MVC didn’t do it that way, but new implementations certainly should).</div>
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<div class="">3. In a good OO framework, the more abstract classes generally have the minimum necessary state (or none at all). Class Morph has 7 instance variables.</div>
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<div class="">4. The goal of OO design is to reuse specifications across multiple implementations, so why does class Morph rename the usual geometry methods of bounds, extent, width, height, etc. as (e.g.,) morphBounds?</div>
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<div class="">I could go on… [flame off] </div>
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<div class="">It would be really nice to have a simple MVC (and display-list graphics) framework that could be placed on top of several graphics back-ends including BitBLT, OpenGL and HTML5.</div>
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<div class="">stp</div>
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<div class=""> Stephen Travis Pope Santa Barbara, California, USA </div>
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line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; 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<span style="font-size: 11px;"><br class="">
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<span style="font-size: 11px;" class="">--</span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11px;" class=""><br class="">
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</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></font></div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 9, 2020, at 11:12 PM, <a href="mailto:stephen@heaveneverywhere.com" class="">
stephen@heaveneverywhere.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
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</div>
…on a related topic, I’ve started porting old-school MVC* to Cuis with the intention of replacing Morphic with a generic framework that can be back-ended by BitBLT, OpenGL or HTML5.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Anybody want to help?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Stephen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">* = starting with traditional MVC classes and system windows, and following that with some version of the “Wrapper” framework as still used in VisualWorks.</div>
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<div class=""><font face="Helvetica Neue" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span style="orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;">
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<div class=""> Stephen Travis Pope Santa Barbara, California, USA </div>
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white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; line-height: normal; font-size: 11px;" class=""></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; line-height: normal; font-size: 11px;" class=""></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; 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text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class="">
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<div class="">On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:53 PM, tim Rowledge <<a href="mailto:tim@rowledge.org" class="">tim@rowledge.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="">Seriously. We've been sitting around twiddling thumbs about better graphics for decades now.
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We had Balloon2D & 3D.<br class="">
We had 'Pooh graphics' to do vector forms.<br class="">
We have some excellent stuff being done by the Cuis crew.<br class="">
We have some amazing ideas from Nile/Gezira.<br class="">
We have a number of potential 3rd party graphics libraries we might adopt.<br class="">
We have an advanced JIT that could be used to make on-demand graphics routines either on their own or working with pretty much any of the above.<br class="">
We probably have other options I've not even heard of.<br class="">
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Maybe we should actually do something? Can we at least talk about it?<br class="">
<br class="">
tim<br class="">
--<br class="">
tim Rowledge; <a href="mailto:tim@rowledge.org" class="">tim@rowledge.org</a>; <a href="http://www.rowledge.org/tim" class="">
http://www.rowledge.org/tim</a><br class="">
Strange OpCodes: SVE: Skip on Vernal Equinox<br class="">
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