<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/07/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">stéphane ducasse</b> <<a href="mailto:ducasse@iam.unibe.ch">ducasse@iam.unibe.ch</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
C'est marrant de voir que cette personne qui s'est plaint de Squeak a<br>prefere recommencer ailleurs au lieu<br>de proposer une nouvelle mouture de Morphic comme est en train de le<br>faire un argentain (juan vuletich).<br>
C'est marrant je n'ai jamais vu cette personne ne serait qu'envoyer<br>un simple fix dans Squeak.<br>Il a surement des tas de raisons.</blockquote><div><br>En tout cas il n'était pas resté "muet" sur la liste squeak-dev , source:
<br><a href="http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=26506356&forum_id=48729">http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=26506356&forum_id=48729</a><br><br>Contenu:<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 23/07/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Paul D. Fernhout</b> <<a href="mailto:pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com">pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Francois-<br><br>I noticed this discussion from a couple of weeks back related to PataPata,<br>and my wife, who speaks some French, gave me a rough translation:<br> <a href="http://www.nabble.com/PataPata-t1915500.html">
http://www.nabble.com/PataPata-t1915500.html</a><br>> by stéphane ducasse-2 2006-07-10 02:33<br>> C'est marrant de voir que cette personne qui s'est plaint de Squeak a<br>> prefere recommencer ailleurs au lieu<br>
> de proposer une nouvelle mouture de Morphic comme est en train de le<br>> faire un argentain (juan vuletich).<br>> C'est marrant je n'ai jamais vu cette personne ne serait qu'envoyer<br>> un simple fix dans Squeak.
<br>> Il a surement des tas de raisons.<br><br>You have been a little quiet on your side of the Atlantic, and if this was<br>the only reason, I should mention I have done some previous things done<br>for Squeak, of varying degrees of success, and mostly from about six to
<br>eight years ago, so perhaps so long ago Stéphane has forgotten?<br><br>I have both contributed to the Squeak community and have specific reasons<br>for not just improving Morphic.<br><br>I was one of the first users of Squeak (Sun, Oct 6 1996):
<br><a href="http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.smalltalk/browse_thread/thread/798b7a065f08bd7f/13361a9ffa40a6f8?lnk=st&q=&rnum=50&hl=en#13361a9ffa40a6f8">http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.smalltalk/browse_thread/thread/798b7a065f08bd7f/13361a9ffa40a6f8?lnk=st&q=&rnum=50&hl=en#13361a9ffa40a6f8
</a><br><br>I developed Embedded Squeak (a small headless Squeak):<br> <a href="http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/squeak/readme.txt">http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/squeak/readme.txt</a><br><br>I worked on a Newton version of Squeak (a fizzled project, admittedly, no
<br>source on the web).<br><br>I released a Data Repository System for Squeak:<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-July/003656.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-July/003656.html
</a><br><br>Some old comments I made on improving Morphic include:<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-February/012486.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-February/012486.html
</a><br>which lead to my proof-of-concept of LinksWorld posted to the Squeak list<br>03/11/2000:<br> "Here is one working example of some of what I am talking about for an<br>alternate design philosophy to Morphic:
<br> <a href="http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/squeak/LinksWorld20000311.zip">http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/squeak/LinksWorld20000311.zip</a><br>This code example is similar to the concept expressed in another post I<br>made related to using networks of links as the basis for GUI building. It
<br>runs under MVC much as Morphic does -- by not actually using the MVC<br>paradigm, but just presenting a "world" window. This code was developed<br>under Squeak 2.7, and I tested filing it into 2.4. It has not been
<br>tested with 2.8."<br><br>A summary I wrote to the Squeak list of the deeper issues:<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-September/009324.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-September/009324.html
</a><br>"There are really just a few core things that need to be rewoven<br>throughout the release -- modularity, exceptions, fonts (please not ones<br>reliant on Morphic) and then Squeak can really take off as the rest of
<br>the parts can be added by individuals as modules. All are already making<br>progress (slowly).<br>But I think it unrealistic to expect an individual or even a group to do<br>these specific core things outside of SqueakC (given the current state
<br>of affairs). Just about everything else, yes. For example, I have in the<br>past offered things like LinksWorld (with undo) or the Pointrel data<br>repository system as Squeak add-ons.<br>These few core things I mentioned would be best done by the core group.
<br>Unfortunately, at this point what we have now (to greatly exaggerate,<br>admittedly) is in effect the core SqueakC team working on extensions and<br>applications (Morphic, eToy, 3DGraphics, Scripting) and everyone else
<br>working on core issues (exceptions, fonts, modularity, block variables).<br>If Squeak was more modular, this inverted approach might work better.<br>But it's not yet. And making Squeak more modular requires making massive
<br>core changes -- a Catch 22 (even I think for the Squeak Stable World<br>Tour, but perhaps that will have oompph enough to get past it.)"<br><br>You can Google for lots of other comments I've made to the Squeak lists on
<br>lots of issues relating to making Squeak a better system. Essentially, the<br>core issues relate to trying to manage complexity in Squeak.<br>For example:<br>"Belling the cat of complexity (was: Ship it with Squeak)"
<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-June/001371.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2000-June/001371.html</a><br>(including proposing a "harvesting" process). From there:
<br>"Les Tyrrell put the issues very eloquently, and makes me<br>realize this issue for shipping is really best put as "managing<br>complexity in Squeak to reduce the risk of unexpected behavior in an<br>application to an acceptable level". The complexity in Squeak comes in two
<br>areas: code issues and license issues."<br><br>One big issue I wrote extensively on the Squeak list was simply the<br>license and related issues -- the Squeak license was not true "open<br>source" or "free software" (especially regarding indemnification and
<br>export provisions), and there was never a clear statement from Disney as<br>to the licensing of the work done while Alan Kay's group was there. I<br>begged Alan Kay to get one as his group left Disney, but essentially got a
<br>reply that software copyright and patents were so messed up that licensing<br>was always problematical and if you read the Squeak license a certain way<br>their stuff was covered somehow. He said similar things publicly
<br>later, a related example being:<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-March/054984.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-March/054984.html</a><br>(which also proposes going beyond Squeak, which I am trying to do).
<br>I'm willing to tolerate some ambiguity in licensing issues,<br>but that seemed pretty much beyond what I was comfortable with. :-)<br>So legally IMHO Squeak itself was (and still is) a shaky<br>foundation to build on (the Disney issue being the most problematical in
<br>my opinion). Technologically interesting, yes, but legally problematical.<br>I also had the Squeak situation reviewed by the legal team at one of the<br>biggest computer companies in the world and could use it only with a lot
<br>of big restrictions even with Disney as a partner (no distribution of the<br>results being the biggest one -- and that big company even had one of the<br>authors of the Squeak license working for it by then and helping
<br>me with the approval process). By contrast, Python got the go-ahead for<br>doing all sorts of stuff with around 1999 (embarrassingly to me, they even<br>asked Guido directly if Python was original) when I wanted permission to
<br>use that for an R&D project. Personally, it would not surprise me if that<br>licensing was also one issue driving some of Alan Kay's groups interest in<br>Python (although I think visibility is still probably the bigger draw. :-)
<br><br>I think history has proven me right on these things. As much as people<br>protested or ignored these points, these issues of managing complexity<br>(e.g. "bit rot") in Squeak and of dealing with licensing issues continue
<br>to limit Squeak's growth and development. For example, recent posts by<br>others on Jan 30 2005 :<br>"Squeak is an unsuccessful open source project (was RE: Let us face reality)"<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-January/087609.html">
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-January/087609.html</a><br>(I agree Craig Latta's work is a great direction).<br>or:<br>"The state of licensing... and a Dream! (was Re: Proposal for a Squeak
<br>migration meeting)"<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-June/105229.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-June/105229.html</a><br>Or even:<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-March/055566.html">
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2003-March/055566.html</a><br><br>I *could* solve the technical issues with Squeak (and would have enjoyed<br>doing so); I could *not* solve the legal ones by myself, or the complexity
<br>management ones of seeing any improvements I made be left to rot as the<br>core team focused on just adding more complexity (which I had already seen<br>happen to other submitters for patches related to fixing core issues.)
<br><br>People are now trying to address these core complexity management<br>issues in Squeak and doing a good job of it, but for me the licensing<br>issues remain as unresolvable ones. Others (including presumably<br>Stéphane) naturally have their own opinions on the licensing situation,
<br>and many agree with Alan Kay's opinion, and so focus on improving Squeak<br>directly, and I wish them the best of success with that.<br>And here is a good idea by Stéphane on how to slowly fix even the<br>licensing issue:
<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-June/105257.html">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-June/105257.html</a><br>The copyright "contamination" problem would still there to varying
<br>degrees, although it would also haunt contributions by anyone, including<br>myself, who has used any commercial Smalltalk which generally come with<br>much source, and most Squeakers fall in that category.<br><br>Still, even Alan Kay himself repeatedly suggests just thinking of Squeak
<br>as a stepping stone to the next great thing.<br><br>These were the sorts of things I wanted to address such as with this proposal:<br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeakfoundation/2002-January/000357.html">
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeakfoundation/2002-January/000357.html</a><br>"The intent of the Bellesqueak list is to support a community process<br>which creates, discusses, uses, and maintains a cross-platform computing
<br>environment and knowledge management system inspired by Squeak Smalltalk<br>called Bellesqueak. The focus of Bellesqueak will be on transparency,<br>robustness, and complexity management -- to support the doing of good
<br>deeds such as education, sustainable development, and ensuring humanity<br>survives Vernor Vinge's Singularity in some form."<br>But, that effort did not progress (although PataPata is a form of progress<br>on it).
<br><br>I just took a week vacation to visit relatives, and now I am<br>reevaluating what I want to do with PataPata -- like whether to continue<br>with Python or reconsider the idea taking the lessons from those versions
<br>and move towards putting prototypes with a Smalltalk/Self syntax on top of<br>OCaml (and perhaps other syntaxes as well, indentational Scheme,<br>Python-ish, etc.). I remain intrigued by the notion of building prototypes
<br>on Ocaml (using it as a "better C") to create a system that has late<br>binding for most things in the system I build but have early binding for a<br>few performance issues like the delegation code itself (which is currently
<br>in Python and so, in this case, not as fast as it could be).<br>Alternatively, modifying the Jython compiler for the JVM to use prototype<br>delegation routines written in Java is another route to gain performance<br>
but in this case stay close to the Python language model<br>(and probably advantageous from a copyright "contamination" point of<br>view). Both approaches have pluses and minuses, as does just sticking with<br>plain Python.
<br><br>--Paul Fernhout<br><br><br></blockquote></div>francois<br><br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Stef<br><br>
<br><br>><br>> A voir ici : <a href="http://showmedo.com/videos/video">http://showmedo.com/videos/video</a>?<br>> name=patapata_tkinter1_fSchnell<br>><br>> WARNING : Troll detected.<br>><br>> Non ce n'est pas un e-Toys en Python, c'est juste un ancien
<br>> utilsateur de Squeak (Paul Fernhout un américain) qui se fait<br>> plaisir en *commençant* quelque chose dans son temps libre (v 0.1).<br>> Son initiative n'est pas supportée par "Guido" à ma connaissance.
<br>><br>> Comme je crois à la diffusion des idées (qui ne sont pas encore<br>> brevetables pour l'instant), j'ai fait ce Screencast pour expliquer<br>> à un autre américain ce que cet américain fesait sur une liste (et
<br>> puis après showmedo l'a repris).<br>><br>> Bon on a tous des choses constructives à faire.<br>><br>> Bonne nuit.<br>><br>> francois<br>><br>> -- oooo
<br>> Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO<br>> Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO<br>> <a href="http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich">http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich
</a> oooooo<br>> Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ /<br>> ##<br>><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________
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