[Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?

Mankovsky, Sheine sheine.mankovsky2 at tdsb.on.ca
Tue Jul 8 01:27:18 PDT 2003


Thanks for the clarification, Alan.  

Best,

Sheine

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay at squeakland.org]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:36 AM
> To:	Mankovsky, Sheine; Jim Ford; Squeakland
> Subject:	RE: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
> 
> Hi Sheine --
> 
> I didn't actually decide on the bookstore approach to the reading 
> list. The list is many years old (and probably needs updating). The 
> kind folks who volunteered to do the new website took a lot of 
> materials and decided to provide secondary and tertiary links to most 
> of the stuff. I think this helps a lot and provides more depth to the 
> site. The links to amazon are quite helpful even if you don't buy a 
> book, since more can be found out about the books if you are 
> interested. So I think this was a good idea. I find I use amazon 
> about 60% of the time for the same purpose: to find out about a book 
> rather than buy it. Historically, I grew up poor and thus virtually 
> all of my reading was from the free public libraries -- so I'm a big 
> supporter of this way of learning. In particular, I have very fond 
> memories of the wonderfully generous folks at the Queensborough 
> Public Library in Jamaica, Queens, who really went all out to help 
> the young teenage me to find out about things I was interested in. A 
> lot of our interest in making the Internet and keeping Squeak free 
> came from my experiences with free public libraries.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan
> 
> At 10:56 PM -0400 7/7/03, Mankovsky, Sheine wrote:
> >Jim, you expressed some important concerns about the direction that
> public
> >education is taking in the UK.  I  have been witnessing similar stuff in
> the
> >last five or so years, when I've been really paying attention, in my own
> >community and in Canada generally.  I decided to do what I can for as
> long
> >as I can.  For me the present is just a place holder for the future.  So,
> if
> >I get only part way, maybe others, or even one other will continue along
> the
> >route.  In other words, that I don't reach my destination, doesn't mean I
> >don't travel.   I believe you mentioned in an earlier note that you were
> >carrying on lunch hour sessions, or intended to start them, at your
> school.
> >That would be very helpful for changing things in the U.K. eventually.
> The
> >power of one can be very strong indeed.   In fact, there may not be
> another
> >like you in the entire UK.  That would make you not wrong, but unique:)
> >
> >Your comments were thought provoking as well, Alan.  I'll just add my
> >thoughts on the bookstores/libraries as learning locations.  Sure there
> is
> >learning available in bookstores and libraries, in fact everywhere.
> >However, if I were asked for my preference, I would advocate for
> libraries
> >because of my individual value system, and on what it is based.  I don't
> >remember my parents buying me a single book when I was a child.  Not one.
> >However, I started going to the public library with my Dad from the age
> of
> >three.  He sat at a table and read books in Yiddish, and I sat in a chair
> >and read English magazines. Or maybe I thought I was reading...  It was a
> >community supported public Jewish library.  He had brought the value of
> >using a library for learning from Poland where there were similar places
> in
> >the town where he lived.  When I was five I raced to the neighbourhood
> >library a few blocks from my home to get a card and borrow my own books.
> I
> >still recall the excitement, and then the disappointment when the
> librarian
> >informed me that the rule was that I would have to keep the books
> overnight
> >before coming back for more.  My point is there is a value statement in
> >supporting a library rather than a bookstore, or a bookstore rather than
> a
> >library.  I was surprised that your reading list is a bookstore rather
> than
> >a libarary because I thought you were a strong advocate of public access
> to
> >books via local public libraries.  I'd be interested in hearing more on
> how
> >you came to deciding on that approach.
> >
> >Sheine
> >
> >
> >>  -----Original Message-----
> >>  From:	Alan Kay [SMTP:Alan.Kay at squeakland.org]
> >>  Sent:	Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM
> >>  To:	Jim Ford; Squeakland
> >>  Subject:	Re: [Squeakland] Squeak 'non-starter' in U.K. schools?
> >  >
> >>  Hi Jim --
> >>
> >>  At 10:55 AM +0100 7/7/03, Jim Ford wrote:
> >>  >Hi,
> >>  >
> >>  >I'm a science technician in a U.K. Independant (non-State) Secondary
> >>  School.
> >>  >I've had experience of several programming languages (including Logo)
> and
> >>  >when I came accross Squeak became a convert to the concept of it
> being an
> >>  >excellent learning tool - not only for children, but adults as well.
> >>  >
> >>  >I've tried introducing Squeak to science teachers, but encountered
> the
> >>  >problem that I've come across with other ideas I've had, which is: if
> >>  it's
> >>  >not in 'The National Curriculum', it won't get taught.
> >>
> >>  The US is definitely moving in a similar direction: towards extremely
> >>  rigid national curricula.
> >>
> >>  >  As has been mentioned
> >>  >many times in the U.K. national papers, our schools are so focused on
> >>  >gaining good published examination results - the so-called 'League
> >>  Tables' -
> >>  >(in spite of the protestations of some Head Teachers), that _nothing_
> >>  >outside 'The Curriculum' has the remotest chance of being taught. The
> >>  >pressure on teaching staff to 'Deliver the Curriculum' is such that
> >>  whilst
> >>  >they may show interest in Squeak, there is not the tiniest slot in
> the
> >>  >teaching day for it to be introduced.
> >>  >
> >>  >I believe that as long as the U.K. education system remains tied to
> the
> >>  >stultifying influence of examination orientated 'League Tables',
> >>  innovative
> >>  >ideas such as Squeak will never be introduced, unless (as is _most_
> >>  unlikely)
> >>  >as officially part of the National Curriculum.
> >>
> >>  There are various ways to look at this. In the US, it's really a
> >>  mixed bag, because the "official curricula" are poorly taught and
> >>  learned, and so, looking on the bright side of things, it's good that
> >>  important subjects like music, art, and real math and science aren't
> >>  official and thus don't get ruined for the children. However, I can't
> >>  quite get myself to be that happy about the current situation, since
> >>  the names of important and interesting subjects such as math and
> >>  science are ruined in the children's eyes, and this taint can remain
> >>  for many years.
> >>
> >>  When we started this effort many years ago in the 60s -- inspired by
> >>  Seymour Papert -- pretty much everyone then thought that most gains
> >>  would be somewhat subversive and outside of formal schooling, and
> >>  that the advent of personal computers and the Internet (both of which
> >>  were well underway) would provide something more like nonschool
> >>  books, libraries, bookstores, etc., from which anyone could learn by
> >>  themselves and in clubs with others. It is likely that this set of
> >>  envisioned processes will be what is required -- and to have quite a
> >>  bit of child to child mentoring -- in order for any real changes to
> >>  happen in the next decade.
> >>
> >>  By the way, in the US at least, things would be helped tremendously
> >>  if scientists and mathematicians were much more strongly involved in
> >>  elementary schooling (and in clubs etc). This is one of our biggest
> >>  problems: not enough people who actually understand the real content
> >>  are involved and want to be involved.
> >>
> >>  Cheers,
> >>
> >>  Alan
> >>
> >>  >
> >>  >I would be interested in comments on the above from those involved in
> the
> >>  >U.K. education system!
> >>  >
> >>  >Regards: Jim Ford
> >>  >
> >>  >--
> >>  >Spam poison - don't use! ---> botulin at watford53.freeserve.co.uk <---
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> >>
> >>
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> 
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