[Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
Gary Fisher
gfisher at altelco.net
Sun Apr 11 08:28:48 PDT 2004
Please accept my apology for being so obtuse, Sheine.
I never said there was a "golden age of pastry chefs," but apparently wrote
in a way which permitted my metaphor of a person of skill and talent (such
as a fine chef) being replaced by uncaring automation (in this case a cookie
cutter) to be misunderstood. Nostalgia was not the issue. The fact a chef
might indeed make good use of a cookie cutter might also have confused you,
as well as the fact that it takes a significant amount of dough to support
either. <s>
I'll try to write simpler in the future.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mankovsky, Sheine" <Sheine.Mankovsky at tdsb.on.ca>
To: "'Gary Fisher'" <squeakland at zchs.org>; "'Gary Fisher'"
<gfisher at altelco.net>; <squeakland at squeakland.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
> I may be missing something. Exactly when was this "Golden Age" of pastry
> chefs, Gary? You remind me of something I once heard or read:); the good
> old days, the good old days--I was there, where were they? When were
your
> "good old days"--ten years ago, twenty? Nostalgia? Culture?
>
> Just asking some questions 'cause I don't claim to know a heck of a lot.
> Nor do I play a musical instrument...
>
> What does a learner need to learn? Who says you need a human to support
> learning. How do you deal with the arrogance of "knowers", particularly
> when they think that information is learning. The music isn't in the
piano.
> The knowledge isn't in the book. Learning isn't education. And pedantry
by
> any other name is still pedantry.
>
> Alan, your final comment is right on and to my mind, the l kernal of your
> note. I haven't returned to the e-car tutorial since a couple of tries
> quite a while ago.....
>
> Having said that, it's useful to unwrap notions about education/learning.
> Perhaps the baggage needs to be identified for other good things to
follow.
> Furthermore, it's useful for people to share where they are coming from so
> they can decide whether they want to continue in the same direction
> together.
>
> Sheine
>
> P.S. Doug, I'd be interested in your analysis of Bork's ideas, if you
would
> like to make that contribution.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: squeakland-bounces at squeakland.org
> > [SMTP:squeakland-bounces at squeakland.org] On Behalf Of Gary Fisher
> > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:38 PM
> > To: squeakland at squeakland.org
> > Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
> >
> > Greetings, Alan!
> >
> > I happily concede that certainly at the most fundamental "flash card"
> > level
> > a computer tutor would be fairly trivial to set up yet potentially quite
> > effective. With etoys it could even quite easily be made fun. The same
> > is
> > true of your "musical basics" example, and could be (and likely has
been)
> > extended to everything from bird identification to basic anatomy. On
> > these
> > matters we're on the same wavelength (of course, I'm riding in the wake
of
> > a
> > wave you and others created).
> >
> > Further, you're exactly right that a good book beats a bad educator,
once
> > one is able to appreciate the former, though a GOOD educator will
greatly
> > enhance the student's understanding of even bad books.
> >
> > Again in agreement, you can't get rid of the dedicated educator, and it
is
> > that possibility -- the automation of education -- that concerns me
most.
> > Technology used to enhance learning and multiply the effect of good
> > teachers
> > is the achievable ideal, but the reality has often been focused instead
on
> > cutting costs, on replacing the pastry chef with a cookie cutter, to use
a
> > metaphor. That would be tragic.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alan Kay" <Alan.Kay at squeakland.org>
> > To: "Gary Fisher" <squeakland at zchs.org>; <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 2:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
> >
> >
> > > Hi Gary --
> > >
> > > Where is the furrowed brow or the cheer for comprehension in a
> > > printed book? I don't think you can get rid of the dedicated educator
> > > (and I don't want to), but I learned a very large part of what I
> > > think about from reading well written and not so well written papers
> > > and books. And, I would also say that a good book beats the average
> > > not-so-good and not-so-dedicated educator hands down if one has
> > > gotten fluent in reading and learning from prose.
> > >
> > > So, I think there is a very important role for much better computer
> > > tutors than we now have. For example, today one could really do such
> > > an intermediary for playing a musical instrument -- especially for
> > > classical music.
> > > An interesting setup would be to see one's human teacher about
> > > once a week and be able to practice all week with one's "practice
> > > helper". The state of the art is high for computers being able to
> > > flexibly listen to music, to follow the human player's changes of
> > > tempo, to note various kinds of phrasing, etc., and would be
> > > especially useful for practicing chamber music where the computer
> > > takes the other parts in a flexible manner.
> > > Of course, this would not at all replace playing the piece with
> > > human players -- computers don't and won't feel music (at least not
> > > in my lifetime) -- but musicians use metronomes quite a bit of the
> > > time when they are practicing, and a flexible computer rendition of
> > > the other parts beats a metronome any time.
> > >
> > > The reason this works for music (especially classical music) is that
> > > many (but not all) of the important goals can be characterized well
> > > enough for the computer to notice what is going on, and also quite a
> > > bit of what it means to be flexible about these goals also can be
> > > characterized. Once you decide to use it for practice and not
> > > performance, you've found a sweet spot where most of the computer
> > > involvement is overwhelmingly positive.
> > >
> > > We can constrast this with programming (which is a bit more like
> > > creative writing). There have been several computer tutors for
> > > teaching programming, and even the best one's I've seen feel
> > > crushingly oppressive (basically like a bad teacher with Skinner box
> > > approach to teaching). In one of the earliest etoy classes with 20
> > > children, in one of their "figure this problem out for yourself"
> > > sessions (creating a road and a car that will drive down the center
> > > of it) we got at least 7 distinct workable solutions to this, 2 of
> > > them extremely elegant.
> > > Now, it's easy in this case to imagine a computer tutor that
> > > could watch to see if the car did indeed stay on the road, but right
> > > now, giving good advice about what the children actually did do
> > > (instead of trying to get them to do a mythical "standard good
> > > solution" (which I hate)) is beyond what anyone knows how to do with
> > > a computer tutor.
> > >
> > > But there is one area in which a really great job can be done, and
> > > this is on some "nugget of goodness" (especially in the beginnings of
> > > learning) in which "everything is known". For example, the "Drive a
> > > Car" project is an excellent way to start learning etoys. There are
> > > about 30+ things that are learned, there are quite a variety of
> > > routes, and there are lots of known snarls that beginners need help
> > > with. Years ago there was a tutor for positional notation subtraction
> > > that really worked extremely well, and this was because the designers
> > > made a net of every possible route the kids could take and every
> > > possible bug they could encounter.
> > > This works on a 15-30 minute project that is deemed important,
> > > but is much too much work and much more difficult in other ways for
> > > even a weeks or months long set of ideas.
> > >
> > > So one of the things that I think would be interesting to do, and
> > > that would help people all over, would be to simply do such a brute
> > > force but nicely flexible job on "the first experience with etoys".
> > > Most people finding this stuff on the net don't have your "dedicated
> > > educator"s to ask for help, so a computer tutor that was "pretty darn
> > > good" just to get people well started would be a tremendous aid all
> > > over the world.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Alan
> > >
> > > At 11:40 AM -0400 4/10/04, Gary Fisher wrote:
> > > >Alan & all;
> > > >
> > > >A draft of the paper cited can be found at
> > >
> >
>http://www.lists.pdx.edu/waoe-views/current/att-0016/Blowing_learning_to_
> > bi
> > ts.doc.
> > > >
> > > >"The computer as tutor" was a hot topic when I was in college during
> > the
> > > >late '60s and early 1970s, and I was peripherally involved in the
> > > >development of several experimental "learning laboratories" at the
> > time.
> > > >Sadly, "the powers that be" on these projects universally adopted the
> > > >hopeless "programmed learning" concept which replaces pedagogy with a
> > dreary
> > > >form of mechanized pedantry.
> > > >
> > > >Though it could be done much better now (and could have been done
much
> > > >better then as well) I lack the imagination to see how genuine
> > understanding
> > > >can be imparted to a child by a tutor unable to discern the furrowed
> > brow,
> > > >or to cheer the sudden gleam of comprehension. I'm sure computers
have
> > a
> > > >proper place in education, but not absent a dedicated educator.
> > > >
> > > >Gary Fisher
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Alan Kay" <Alan.Kay at squeakland.org>
> > > >To: "Doug Wolfgram" <doug at gfx.com>; <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> > > >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 11:17 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Doug --
> > > >>
> > > >> Al Bork is very well known in this area going all the way back to
> > the
> > > >> 60s. There is a great old book called "The Computer as Tool,
Tutor,
> > > >> and Tutee" which contains seminal papers by Bork, Papert, and
> > others.
> > > >>
> > > >> I couldn't find "Blowing Learning to Bits" on Amazon.
> > > >>
> > > >> One of the original ideas about all this stuff back in the 60s was
> > > >> that some form of AI would develop enough to allow the computer to
> > > >> "understand" enough of a subject to be able to gently correct and
> > > >> steer. This just didn't happen. Some of the near misses (many done
> > at
> > > >> CMU) are quite interesting. Plato (at the U of Illinois) was a
huge
> > > >> system in the 60s and 70s that did a kind of tutorial on many
> > > >> subjects. It's worth studying, but it never got up to what Seymour
> > > >> and I thought would be at all reasonable.
> > > >>
> > > >> There have been some proposals for making a tutorial interface for
> > > >> the Squeak Etoys that use a number of techniques to handle the
> > > >> detecting and gentle correction of errors. I'm hoping to get at
> > least
> > > >> one of these started towards the end of the year.
> > > >>
> > > >> It would be great to hear from people on this list just what "the
> > > >> computer as tutor" means to them.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >> Alan
> > > >>
> > > >> At 10:56 PM -0700 4/9/04, Doug Wolfgram wrote:
> > > >> >I was recently introduced to Alfred Bork's papers on 'Computer as
> > > >> >Tutor' and am getting very interested in his work. He is
professor
> > > >> >emeritus at UCI (U of Cal Irvine) and is starting a company to
> > build
> > > >> >large scale educational systems spanning preschool through adult
> > > >> >education. I don't want to misstate his goals here, but if
anyone
> > > >> >else has heard of his book, 'Blowing Learning to Bits', I'd love
to
> > > >> >hear about it.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >I believe that Squeak is the perfect environment for having the
> > > >> >'Computer as Tutor'. Are there ay specific papers on this
subject,
> > > >> >even if by another name? Are any of you working on projects where
> > > >> >you could stand back and say "yes, we designed this because we
saw
> > > >> >the computer as the tutor?" I don't believe that Dr. Bork wants
to
> > > >> >replace teachers in any way, he is just focused on that
> > 'additional'
> > > >> >teacher in our lives, technology.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Cheers!
> > > >> >
> > > >> >D
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >_________________________________________
> > > >> >
> > > >> >"If you're not in e-business ... you're not in business.."
> > > >> >_________________________________________
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Doug Wolfgram
> > > >> >GRAFX Group, Inc.
> > > >> >Cell: 949.433.3641
> > > >> >http://www.gfx.com
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >_______________________________________________
> > > >> >Squeakland mailing list
> > > >> >Squeakland at squeakland.org
> > > >> >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
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> > >
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> > > --
> >
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