[Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
Mankovsky, Sheine
Sheine.Mankovsky at tdsb.on.ca
Sat Apr 10 18:39:04 PDT 2004
I may be missing something. Exactly when was this "Golden Age" of pastry
chefs, Gary? You remind me of something I once heard or read:); the good
old days, the good old days--I was there, where were they? When were your
"good old days"--ten years ago, twenty? Nostalgia? Culture?
Just asking some questions 'cause I don't claim to know a heck of a lot.
Nor do I play a musical instrument...
What does a learner need to learn? Who says you need a human to support
learning. How do you deal with the arrogance of "knowers", particularly
when they think that information is learning. The music isn't in the piano.
The knowledge isn't in the book. Learning isn't education. And pedantry by
any other name is still pedantry.
Alan, your final comment is right on and to my mind, the l kernal of your
note. I haven't returned to the e-car tutorial since a couple of tries
quite a while ago.....
Having said that, it's useful to unwrap notions about education/learning.
Perhaps the baggage needs to be identified for other good things to follow.
Furthermore, it's useful for people to share where they are coming from so
they can decide whether they want to continue in the same direction
together.
Sheine
P.S. Doug, I'd be interested in your analysis of Bork's ideas, if you would
like to make that contribution.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: squeakland-bounces at squeakland.org
> [SMTP:squeakland-bounces at squeakland.org] On Behalf Of Gary Fisher
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:38 PM
> To: squeakland at squeakland.org
> Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
>
> Greetings, Alan!
>
> I happily concede that certainly at the most fundamental "flash card"
> level
> a computer tutor would be fairly trivial to set up yet potentially quite
> effective. With etoys it could even quite easily be made fun. The same
> is
> true of your "musical basics" example, and could be (and likely has been)
> extended to everything from bird identification to basic anatomy. On
> these
> matters we're on the same wavelength (of course, I'm riding in the wake of
> a
> wave you and others created).
>
> Further, you're exactly right that a good book beats a bad educator, once
> one is able to appreciate the former, though a GOOD educator will greatly
> enhance the student's understanding of even bad books.
>
> Again in agreement, you can't get rid of the dedicated educator, and it is
> that possibility -- the automation of education -- that concerns me most.
> Technology used to enhance learning and multiply the effect of good
> teachers
> is the achievable ideal, but the reality has often been focused instead on
> cutting costs, on replacing the pastry chef with a cookie cutter, to use a
> metaphor. That would be tragic.
>
> All the best,
>
> Gary
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Kay" <Alan.Kay at squeakland.org>
> To: "Gary Fisher" <squeakland at zchs.org>; <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 2:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
>
>
> > Hi Gary --
> >
> > Where is the furrowed brow or the cheer for comprehension in a
> > printed book? I don't think you can get rid of the dedicated educator
> > (and I don't want to), but I learned a very large part of what I
> > think about from reading well written and not so well written papers
> > and books. And, I would also say that a good book beats the average
> > not-so-good and not-so-dedicated educator hands down if one has
> > gotten fluent in reading and learning from prose.
> >
> > So, I think there is a very important role for much better computer
> > tutors than we now have. For example, today one could really do such
> > an intermediary for playing a musical instrument -- especially for
> > classical music.
> > An interesting setup would be to see one's human teacher about
> > once a week and be able to practice all week with one's "practice
> > helper". The state of the art is high for computers being able to
> > flexibly listen to music, to follow the human player's changes of
> > tempo, to note various kinds of phrasing, etc., and would be
> > especially useful for practicing chamber music where the computer
> > takes the other parts in a flexible manner.
> > Of course, this would not at all replace playing the piece with
> > human players -- computers don't and won't feel music (at least not
> > in my lifetime) -- but musicians use metronomes quite a bit of the
> > time when they are practicing, and a flexible computer rendition of
> > the other parts beats a metronome any time.
> >
> > The reason this works for music (especially classical music) is that
> > many (but not all) of the important goals can be characterized well
> > enough for the computer to notice what is going on, and also quite a
> > bit of what it means to be flexible about these goals also can be
> > characterized. Once you decide to use it for practice and not
> > performance, you've found a sweet spot where most of the computer
> > involvement is overwhelmingly positive.
> >
> > We can constrast this with programming (which is a bit more like
> > creative writing). There have been several computer tutors for
> > teaching programming, and even the best one's I've seen feel
> > crushingly oppressive (basically like a bad teacher with Skinner box
> > approach to teaching). In one of the earliest etoy classes with 20
> > children, in one of their "figure this problem out for yourself"
> > sessions (creating a road and a car that will drive down the center
> > of it) we got at least 7 distinct workable solutions to this, 2 of
> > them extremely elegant.
> > Now, it's easy in this case to imagine a computer tutor that
> > could watch to see if the car did indeed stay on the road, but right
> > now, giving good advice about what the children actually did do
> > (instead of trying to get them to do a mythical "standard good
> > solution" (which I hate)) is beyond what anyone knows how to do with
> > a computer tutor.
> >
> > But there is one area in which a really great job can be done, and
> > this is on some "nugget of goodness" (especially in the beginnings of
> > learning) in which "everything is known". For example, the "Drive a
> > Car" project is an excellent way to start learning etoys. There are
> > about 30+ things that are learned, there are quite a variety of
> > routes, and there are lots of known snarls that beginners need help
> > with. Years ago there was a tutor for positional notation subtraction
> > that really worked extremely well, and this was because the designers
> > made a net of every possible route the kids could take and every
> > possible bug they could encounter.
> > This works on a 15-30 minute project that is deemed important,
> > but is much too much work and much more difficult in other ways for
> > even a weeks or months long set of ideas.
> >
> > So one of the things that I think would be interesting to do, and
> > that would help people all over, would be to simply do such a brute
> > force but nicely flexible job on "the first experience with etoys".
> > Most people finding this stuff on the net don't have your "dedicated
> > educator"s to ask for help, so a computer tutor that was "pretty darn
> > good" just to get people well started would be a tremendous aid all
> > over the world.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Alan
> >
> > At 11:40 AM -0400 4/10/04, Gary Fisher wrote:
> > >Alan & all;
> > >
> > >A draft of the paper cited can be found at
> >
> >http://www.lists.pdx.edu/waoe-views/current/att-0016/Blowing_learning_to_
> bi
> ts.doc.
> > >
> > >"The computer as tutor" was a hot topic when I was in college during
> the
> > >late '60s and early 1970s, and I was peripherally involved in the
> > >development of several experimental "learning laboratories" at the
> time.
> > >Sadly, "the powers that be" on these projects universally adopted the
> > >hopeless "programmed learning" concept which replaces pedagogy with a
> dreary
> > >form of mechanized pedantry.
> > >
> > >Though it could be done much better now (and could have been done much
> > >better then as well) I lack the imagination to see how genuine
> understanding
> > >can be imparted to a child by a tutor unable to discern the furrowed
> brow,
> > >or to cheer the sudden gleam of comprehension. I'm sure computers have
> a
> > >proper place in education, but not absent a dedicated educator.
> > >
> > >Gary Fisher
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Alan Kay" <Alan.Kay at squeakland.org>
> > >To: "Doug Wolfgram" <doug at gfx.com>; <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> > >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 11:17 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Squeakland] Computer as Tutor
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi Doug --
> > >>
> > >> Al Bork is very well known in this area going all the way back to
> the
> > >> 60s. There is a great old book called "The Computer as Tool, Tutor,
> > >> and Tutee" which contains seminal papers by Bork, Papert, and
> others.
> > >>
> > >> I couldn't find "Blowing Learning to Bits" on Amazon.
> > >>
> > >> One of the original ideas about all this stuff back in the 60s was
> > >> that some form of AI would develop enough to allow the computer to
> > >> "understand" enough of a subject to be able to gently correct and
> > >> steer. This just didn't happen. Some of the near misses (many done
> at
> > >> CMU) are quite interesting. Plato (at the U of Illinois) was a huge
> > >> system in the 60s and 70s that did a kind of tutorial on many
> > >> subjects. It's worth studying, but it never got up to what Seymour
> > >> and I thought would be at all reasonable.
> > >>
> > >> There have been some proposals for making a tutorial interface for
> > >> the Squeak Etoys that use a number of techniques to handle the
> > >> detecting and gentle correction of errors. I'm hoping to get at
> least
> > >> one of these started towards the end of the year.
> > >>
> > >> It would be great to hear from people on this list just what "the
> > >> computer as tutor" means to them.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Alan
> > >>
> > >> At 10:56 PM -0700 4/9/04, Doug Wolfgram wrote:
> > >> >I was recently introduced to Alfred Bork's papers on 'Computer as
> > >> >Tutor' and am getting very interested in his work. He is professor
> > >> >emeritus at UCI (U of Cal Irvine) and is starting a company to
> build
> > >> >large scale educational systems spanning preschool through adult
> > >> >education. I don't want to misstate his goals here, but if anyone
> > >> >else has heard of his book, 'Blowing Learning to Bits', I'd love to
> > >> >hear about it.
> > >> >
> > >> >I believe that Squeak is the perfect environment for having the
> > >> >'Computer as Tutor'. Are there ay specific papers on this subject,
> > >> >even if by another name? Are any of you working on projects where
> > >> >you could stand back and say "yes, we designed this because we saw
> > >> >the computer as the tutor?" I don't believe that Dr. Bork wants to
> > >> >replace teachers in any way, he is just focused on that
> 'additional'
> > >> >teacher in our lives, technology.
> > >> >
> > >> >Cheers!
> > >> >
> > >> >D
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >_________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> >"If you're not in e-business ... you're not in business.."
> > >> >_________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> >Doug Wolfgram
> > >> >GRAFX Group, Inc.
> > >> >Cell: 949.433.3641
> > >> >http://www.gfx.com
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >_______________________________________________
> > >> >Squeakland mailing list
> > >> >Squeakland at squeakland.org
> > >> >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
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> > >
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> >
> >
> > --
>
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