[Squeakland] Recursion supported in etoys script ?

Alan Kay alan.kay at squeakland.org
Mon Mar 28 06:42:41 PST 2005


Hi Folks --

This brings up an interesting pedagogical question about recursion and objects.

Smalltalk (and hence Squeak) has full capabilities for recursion, and etoys 
could (and maybe should) also.

On the other hand, let's take an example, such as drawing/building a tree 
shape. A LOGO-like recursive approach would be to make a procedure that 
draws a V shape, and then write a recursive procedure that invokes this V 
at different sizes and angles to draw the tree.

Another, more object oriented, approach that is a little more biological is 
to make a branch object with a non-looping method that creates sprouting 
further branches (copies of itself) of the tree and gives them "life" to 
create limbs of their own using the sprouting method. This is much simpler 
to think about and do, it actually creates a tree of branch objects, and 
the technique generalizes much better to massively parallel structures that 
are more complicated than simple nested structures.

The interesting dualism here was noted when objects where invented, that 
because objects have a full copy of state (whereas procedures don't), there 
often no good reason for using an invisible stack of contexts where a 
visible collection of objects would better serve ....

Not that there aren't some nice and neat things that can be done with 
recursion, but it seems to me, where kids are concerned, there should be 
big payoffs for each concept that is trying to find a place in the kids' 
7+-2 chunks used to think with -- and recursion doesn't make the initial 
cut in my opinion.

Cheers,

Alan



At 11:15 PM 3/27/2005, Scott Wallace wrote:
>Hi, all.  A question arose recently on the Squeak-dev mailing list (a list 
>mostly inhabited by software engineers) concerning "recursion in 
>etoys."  I wrote a reply, which I'm herewith forwarding to the Squeakland 
>list, on the chance that this information might be useful to some 
>readers.  BTW my reply was suppressed by the moderators of the Squeak-dev 
>list, who said it was too large, so it never did actually appear on that 
>list  ;-)
>
>   -- Scott
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Hi, Kevin,
>
>Yes, etoys do support recursion.  But they don't have a good way of 
>detecting and recovering from *runaway* recursion, which is what was 
>befalling your script.
>
>Here's a recursive etoy script which does what you want, and which *does* 
>converge, provided that there is a patch of the appropriate blue somewhere 
>ahead of the Star:
>
>6ab46315.jpg
>
>
>Two points to note here:
>
>(1)  The critical difference between this and what you did is that after 
>the *copy* is made, this script "includes" that copy in the 
>container.  Without the "include," the copy isn't present in the "world", 
>so neither it nor any future generation of "copy" will be "over blue" and 
>hence terminate the recursion.  That's why your recursion ran away.
>
>(2)  In the last line, it's *okay* simply to have "Star's nextGuy 
>approachBlue".  The value of the "do" inserted here is that this defers 
>the recursive #approachBlue script call until the next cycle of the 
>simulation.  The result will be there will be a sense of "movement" since 
>each generation will be born on a different tick, whereas without the "do" 
>all the generations will be born within the same "tick" so all will appear 
>instantaneously -- a much less nice effect.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Scott
>
>
>PS:  Please check out Squeakland.org, and you may well want to subscribe 
>to the Squeakland mailing list:
>         http://www.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>
>
>At 10:08 AM -0800 3/25/05, Kevin Lawrence wrote:
>>Is it appropriate to post questions about etoys to this list ?
>>
>>[I'll risk it this time - let me know if there is somewhere else I should 
>>be asking, thanks.]
>>
>>
>>I tried making a simple etoys script with recursion and it hangs as soon 
>>as I click the run icon.
>>
>>the script was essentially (excuse my Java-ish pseudocode) ...
>>
>>
>>spawn script
>>  test self.sees blue
>>
>>  yes
>>
>>  no
>>   self.newCopy = self.copy
>>   self.newCopy.forwardBy self.length
>>   self.newCopy.spawn
>>
>>
>>Assuming I haven't made a really silly *mistake, should this work ?
>>
>>Is recursion supported ?
>>
>>(I searched the bug database but couldn't find anything)
>>
>>
>>Thanks !
>>
>>Kevin
>>
>>* Please tell me if there is a silly mistake !
>
>
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