[squeakland] Re: on having two squeakland websites (Timothy
Falconer) (still...)
Bruno Sperb
brunosperb at yahoo.com.br
Sat Sep 12 20:24:29 EDT 2009
Hi everyone,
Im afraid it can be a bit too late to talk about this very rich
squeakland discussion, but still... :)
From our work directly with the kids and teachers with Etoys, I think
that the most important thing is to have an environment where everyone
can create their space: have a profile, public their projects and
INTERACT with others. I think that the reason for the sucess of Scratcht
website is the interaction the users are able to do (to publish the
project they want, to give it a tag, to evaluate it, to do it with
others projects too...)! I have been navigating on the website for a
while now, and it is quite amazing how the users are talking to each
other, eg: "how did you do this game? Where did you get this music from?
How to make the animation like this?", etc.
One of our difficulties deepening the use of Etoys inside the school is:
we don't have yet a proper place where the teacher and the kids can
actually see what other people are making with Etoys, and to interact
with them. There are many kids here with many projects inside their XOs
that are still there (and talking with colleagues from Uruguai and
around, it is the same thing)! One important thing is to consider who
are (or will be) the users of the website? I think that an essencial
part of the E-toys comunity is the children who are creating projects
around the world. If we take that into account, what I would aim is an
evironment (inside the Squeakland or not) aimed to easy publication
(upload) and download, running the projects online (like the Illinois
website, for example) and mainly interaction.
May be there are worries about having only finished and more elaborated
projects published. I think that the users themselves should have the
oportunity to regulate what the website is showing (top viewed, top
rated, newest projects, etc).
Like Nevit Dilmen said, may be thats too dificult too maintain, to
moderate, etc but thats what I think we should go for...
All the best,
Bruno Sperb
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: on having two squeakland websites (Timothy Falconer)
> 2. Re: [etoys-dev] Etoys documentation TOC (Karl Ramberg)
> 3. we have officially overtaken etoys.com in google
> (Timothy Falconer)
> 4. Re: on having two squeakland websites (Yoshiki Ohshima)
> 5. Re: Etoys documentation TOC (Rita Freudenberg)
> 6. education meeting notes (Rita Freudenberg)
> 7. Re: on having two squeakland websites (Rita Freudenberg)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:29:04 -0400
> From: Timothy Falconer <timothy at squeakland.org>
> Subject: Re: [squeakland] on having two squeakland websites
> To: Nevit Dilmen <nevilo at yahoo.com>
> Message-ID: <52AA14A9-958B-45B5-9939-26BFAE709943 at squeakland.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Nevit Dilmen wrote:
>
>
>> As an eToys user you can count me as this "few". I strongly agree
>> with this idea, and believe eToys has been pretty late in this
>> decision. The websites does not necessarily be hosted on seperate
>> domains. But all can be handled with subdomains.
>>
>> village.squeakland.org, projects.squeakland.org,
>> forum.squeakland.org, wiki.squeakland.org, blogs.squeakland.org, info.squekland.org
>> , www.squeakland.org . etc.
>>
>>
>>> As with all suggestions, I'm open to ideas, but in this
>>> particular case, I'd like some serious community discussion
>>> about this. I'd like there to be solid, compelling,
>>> reasons for such a move.
>>>
>>> Here are the reasons I'm against "splitting the baby", as
>>> IMO would happen if we make two sites. I'll
>>> distinguish as squeakland.org (official) and etoysville.com
>>> (community).
>>>
>> I will not go in details below, one by one as you suggested. I would
>> instead compare eToys with Scratch which is a project launched later
>> than eToys and based on Squeak code.
>>
>> Scratch has been a huge success perhaps because of it's community
>> website. The community website is not a separate domain as suggested
>> above but is the main site. It includes areas for official
>> announcements but the majority of site is composed of project area
>> with more than 500.000 projects hosted. The second major part of
>> the site is forum and both use unified login. Projects are uploaded
>> right from within the application. Projects are shared and hosted
>> with Creative Commons licence which allows recycling and use for
>> educational purposes.
>>
>> The official areas of the site include blog, downloads,
>> translations, research, info, credits, quotes, news, store,
>> donations, conference, scratch day & learning materials.
>>
>> The important question to be answered is does VPRI or sponsors
>> behind eToys project have enough financial and man power resources
>> to launch such a major project with huge design, hosting and
>> maintenance demands? And are they willing to do so.
>>
>
>
> Nevit,
>
> We *will* be launching a public showcase in the next two weeks, where
> users can share directly from Etoys. This is a major feature of the
> new release.
>
> The debate is about whether these public projects show on a separate
> website or seperate-looking section.
>
> I'm in favor of the Scratch way (integrated as a major part of the
> main site). Others want the look and navigation to be different than
> the main website, to feel like a separate place than the main website.
>
> I agree that a public showcase has been a long time coming. Our
> proposal for last year's website redesign included a Scratch-like
> public showcase, with features such as curriculum overlays. This
> part was cut largely because VPRI didn't feel they had the manpower to
> moderate a public showcase effectively.
>
> Now that control has been passed to Squeakland Foundation, we're
> creating this public showcase as one of our first, top, priorities.
>
> Take care,
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:47:47 +0200
> From: Karl Ramberg <karlramberg at gmail.com>
> Subject: [squeakland] Re: [etoys-dev] Etoys documentation TOC
> To: Rita Freudenberg <rita at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
> Cc: etoys dev <etoys-dev at squeakland.org>, "squeakland.org mailing
> list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> Message-ID: <4AA00143.2040001 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 2009-09-03 13:01, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> as you all know we don't really have an Etoys documentation. So let's
>> start writing it. As I wrote earlier I propose to use FLOSS Manuals.
>> It is used by the olpc and sugar community for writing manuals and
>> books. To get started we should have a TOC outline. Here are my
>> suggestions:
>>
>> 1. Introduction (short description what etoys is about)
>> 2. Getting started (technical description on how to install and start
>> etoys on different operating systems)
>> 3. User Interface (painting tools, halo, viewer ...)
>> 4. Tiles (describing every available tile)
>> 5. Objects (everything from the supplies bin and object catalogue, flaps)
>>
>> What am I missing? Of course we can have subchapters and also later
>> add main chapters if we find out we need it. Here is the manual for
>> TurtleArt so you can get the idea what our documentation could look like:
>> http://en.flossmanuals.net/turtleart
>>
>> What do you think? If we come up with a TOC outline I can send it to
>> Anne Gentle from FLOSS manuals to set it up and we can start writing:)
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Rita
>>
>>
> Oh, and I made the UpdatingScreenshotMorph:
> http://tracker.immuexa.com/browse/SQ-96
> The nice thing with it is that if you take a UpdatingScreenShot of a
> script for example and add in your BookMorph or text
> you don't have to make a new screenshot if you change the script or
> language because it updates :-)
> So if we keep the documentation internal in Squeak as long as possible
> this could maybe be helpful.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:52:43 -0400
> From: Timothy Falconer <timothy at squeakland.org>
> Subject: [squeakland] we have officially overtaken etoys.com in google
> To: "squeakland.org mailing list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> Message-ID: <E9A8D80A-0C8C-4D56-97EA-0BB81ACEC5B8 at squeakland.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Something surprising and new . . .
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=etoys
>
> We're #1, ahead of etoys.com. This is a pretty clear indication of
> word spreading about us. (Yes etoys.com still sells toys.)
>
> We're still very low in "educational software" and similar searches
> (Alice is on page 6, Scratch much further down).
>
> Keep linking to us, that's how it works.
>
> Take care,
> Tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:01:39 -0700
> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki at vpri.org>
> Subject: Re: [squeakland] on having two squeakland websites
> To: "squeakland.org mailing list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>
> Message-ID: <uws4fy3vg.wl%yoshiki at vpri.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> I finally read the thread...
>
>
>> 8. it's just confusing to have two sites
>>
>
> Maybe this is only the real one and other 9 or 8 items are
> concequences of it?
>
>
>> C) squeakland is built on storymill, which is not "free and open
>> source" or written in Squeak itself
>>
>
> Did anybody say that? There was "what you write is different from
> what I read" aspect in some conversations, but if you are implying
> what I wrote sometime before, what I wrote was "an openly-available
> platform" so that one developer can control (by that I meant that the
> developer can test and look at both the server (like logs and error
> messages) and client, and not putting anybody on the critical path.
>
> But, as people agreed, we go with the plan. So, the question comes
> down to "when" we really work on it and make it work. Can you tell me
> (or some other developer) when you have quality time so that can work
> together?
>
> -- Yoshiki
>
>
>> And the last reason, which has not been publicly stated, but I suspect
>> exists . . .
>>
>> D) some people are frustrated with me personally and want the freedom
>> to change things without me saying "well, what about so and so"
>>
>
> Well, *if* you follow what you wrote below, you probably name "some
> people", so that not leaving everybody in the community wondering
> "hmm, maybe my body language really sucks and I'm giving wrong
> impression on Tim?"
>
> But no, don't do that. Instead, you should just try to "read" what
> is written as it is, and not to "interpret" too much. That is the key
> of text-based technical conversation.
>
> -- Yoshiki
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:13:19 +0200
> From: Rita Freudenberg <rita at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
> Subject: Re: [squeakland] Etoys documentation TOC
> To: Timothy Falconer <timothy at immuexa.com>
> Cc: "squeakland.org mailing list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>, etoys
> dev <etoys-dev at squeakland.org>
> Message-ID: <4AA0DA2F.3020802 at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Timothy Falconer wrote:
>
>> On Sep 3, 2009, at 7:23 AM, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 3, 2009, at 7:01 AM, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> as you all know we don't really have an Etoys documentation. So
>>>> let's start writing it. As I wrote earlier I propose to use FLOSS
>>>> Manuals. It is used by the olpc and sugar community for writing
>>>> manuals and books. To get started we should have a TOC outline. Here
>>>> are my suggestions:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Introduction (short description what etoys is about)
>>>> 2. Getting started (technical description on how to install and
>>>> start etoys on different operating systems)
>>>> 3. User Interface (painting tools, halo, viewer ...)
>>>> 4. Tiles (describing every available tile)
>>>> 5. Objects (everything from the supplies bin and object catalogue,
>>>> flaps)
>>>>
>>>> What am I missing? Of course we can have subchapters and also later
>>>> add main chapters if we find out we need it. Here is the manual for
>>>> TurtleArt so you can get the idea what our documentation could look
>>>> like:
>>>> http://en.flossmanuals.net/turtleart
>>>>
>>>> What do you think? If we come up with a TOC outline I can send it to
>>>> Anne Gentle from FLOSS manuals to set it up and we can start writing:)
>>>>
>>> It's a good list. So this would be more of a reference manual than a
>>> getting started guide? (with tutorials)
>>>
> Yes, a reference manual is what I had in mind. I'm sorry for not making
> that clear.
>
>>> We could link back to the Etoys unit of the courseware for the
>>> gentler intro.
>>>
>> Also, just want to highlight that we actually do have some
>> documentation (with even a big PDF):
>>
>> http://squeakland.org/tutorials/guides/
>>
>> Kathleen's work is concise and useful, and should be used where
>> possible in the FLOSS version.
>>
> Definitely, I will not have the same things written again, but collect
> it at one place. And since it is a reference manual, it will be shorter
> than other materials, but complete. As Bert pointed out "it defines the
> boundary of what we consider officially supported, and what not."
>
> Rita
>
>> Tim
>>
>
>
>
--
Bruno Fagundes Sperb
cel - 96853758
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