[squeakland] Re: on having two squeakland websites (Timothy
Falconer) (still...)
Timothy Falconer
timothy at squeakland.org
Sat Sep 12 20:33:47 EDT 2009
Bruno,
I completely agree, and you'll be seeing all that you mention in less
than a week.
Stay tuned,
Tim
On Sep 12, 2009, at 8:24 PM, Bruno Sperb wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Im afraid it can be a bit too late to talk about this very rich
> squeakland discussion, but still... :)
> From our work directly with the kids and teachers with Etoys, I
> think that the most important thing is to have an environment where
> everyone can create their space: have a profile, public their
> projects and INTERACT with others. I think that the reason for the
> sucess of Scratcht website is the interaction the users are able to
> do (to publish the project they want, to give it a tag, to evaluate
> it, to do it with others projects too...)! I have been navigating on
> the website for a while now, and it is quite amazing how the users
> are talking to each other, eg: "how did you do this game? Where did
> you get this music from? How to make the animation like this?", etc.
> One of our difficulties deepening the use of Etoys inside the school
> is: we don't have yet a proper place where the teacher and the kids
> can actually see what other people are making with Etoys, and to
> interact with them. There are many kids here with many projects
> inside their XOs that are still there (and talking with colleagues
> from Uruguai and around, it is the same thing)! One important thing
> is to consider who are (or will be) the users of the website? I
> think that an essencial part of the E-toys comunity is the children
> who are creating projects around the world. If we take that into
> account, what I would aim is an evironment (inside the Squeakland or
> not) aimed to easy publication (upload) and download, running the
> projects online (like the Illinois website, for example) and mainly
> interaction.
> May be there are worries about having only finished and more
> elaborated projects published. I think that the users themselves
> should have the oportunity to regulate what the website is showing
> (top viewed, top rated, newest projects, etc).
> Like Nevit Dilmen said, may be thats too dificult too maintain, to
> moderate, etc but thats what I think we should go for...
>
> All the best,
>
> Bruno Sperb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> queakland-request at squeakland.org escreveu:
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: on having two squeakland websites (Timothy Falconer)
>> 2. Re: [etoys-dev] Etoys documentation TOC (Karl Ramberg)
>> 3. we have officially overtaken etoys.com in google
>> (Timothy Falconer)
>> 4. Re: on having two squeakland websites (Yoshiki Ohshima)
>> 5. Re: Etoys documentation TOC (Rita Freudenberg)
>> 6. education meeting notes (Rita Freudenberg)
>> 7. Re: on having two squeakland websites (Rita Freudenberg)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:29:04 -0400
>> From: Timothy Falconer <timothy at squeakland.org>
>> Subject: Re: [squeakland] on having two squeakland websites
>> To: Nevit Dilmen <nevilo at yahoo.com>
>> Message-ID: <52AA14A9-958B-45B5-9939-26BFAE709943 at squeakland.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>>
>> On Sep 2, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Nevit Dilmen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As an eToys user you can count me as this "few". I strongly agree
>>> with this idea, and believe eToys has been pretty late in this
>>> decision. The websites does not necessarily be hosted on seperate
>>> domains. But all can be handled with subdomains.
>>>
>>> village.squeakland.org, projects.squeakland.org, forum.squeakland.org
>>> , wiki.squeakland.org, blogs.squeakland.org, info.squekland.org , www.squeakland.org
>>> . etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As with all suggestions, I'm open to ideas, but in this
>>>> particular case, I'd like some serious community discussion
>>>> about this. I'd like there to be solid, compelling,
>>>> reasons for such a move.
>>>> Here are the reasons I'm against "splitting the baby", as
>>>> IMO would happen if we make two sites. I'll
>>>> distinguish as squeakland.org (official) and etoysville.com
>>>> (community).
>>>>
>>> I will not go in details below, one by one as you suggested. I
>>> would instead compare eToys with Scratch which is a project
>>> launched later than eToys and based on Squeak code.
>>>
>>> Scratch has been a huge success perhaps because of it's community
>>> website. The community website is not a separate domain as
>>> suggested above but is the main site. It includes areas for
>>> official announcements but the majority of site is composed of
>>> project area with more than 500.000 projects hosted. The second
>>> major part of the site is forum and both use unified login.
>>> Projects are uploaded right from within the application. Projects
>>> are shared and hosted with Creative Commons licence which allows
>>> recycling and use for educational purposes.
>>>
>>> The official areas of the site include blog, downloads,
>>> translations, research, info, credits, quotes, news, store,
>>> donations, conference, scratch day & learning materials.
>>>
>>> The important question to be answered is does VPRI or sponsors
>>> behind eToys project have enough financial and man power
>>> resources to launch such a major project with huge design,
>>> hosting and maintenance demands? And are they willing to do so.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Nevit,
>>
>> We *will* be launching a public showcase in the next two weeks,
>> where users can share directly from Etoys. This is a major
>> feature of the new release.
>>
>> The debate is about whether these public projects show on a
>> separate website or seperate-looking section.
>>
>> I'm in favor of the Scratch way (integrated as a major part of the
>> main site). Others want the look and navigation to be different
>> than the main website, to feel like a separate place than the main
>> website.
>>
>> I agree that a public showcase has been a long time coming. Our
>> proposal for last year's website redesign included a Scratch-like
>> public showcase, with features such as curriculum overlays. This
>> part was cut largely because VPRI didn't feel they had the manpower
>> to moderate a public showcase effectively.
>>
>> Now that control has been passed to Squeakland Foundation, we're
>> creating this public showcase as one of our first, top, priorities.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:47:47 +0200
>> From: Karl Ramberg <karlramberg at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [squeakland] Re: [etoys-dev] Etoys documentation TOC
>> To: Rita Freudenberg <rita at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
>> Cc: etoys dev <etoys-dev at squeakland.org>, "squeakland.org mailing
>> list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>
>> Message-ID: <4AA00143.2040001 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> On 2009-09-03 13:01, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> as you all know we don't really have an Etoys documentation. So
>>> let's start writing it. As I wrote earlier I propose to use FLOSS
>>> Manuals. It is used by the olpc and sugar community for writing
>>> manuals and books. To get started we should have a TOC outline.
>>> Here are my suggestions:
>>>
>>> 1. Introduction (short description what etoys is about)
>>> 2. Getting started (technical description on how to install and
>>> start etoys on different operating systems)
>>> 3. User Interface (painting tools, halo, viewer ...)
>>> 4. Tiles (describing every available tile)
>>> 5. Objects (everything from the supplies bin and object catalogue,
>>> flaps)
>>>
>>> What am I missing? Of course we can have subchapters and also
>>> later add main chapters if we find out we need it. Here is the
>>> manual for TurtleArt so you can get the idea what our
>>> documentation could look like:
>>> http://en.flossmanuals.net/turtleart
>>>
>>> What do you think? If we come up with a TOC outline I can send it
>>> to Anne Gentle from FLOSS manuals to set it up and we can start
>>> writing:)
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>> Rita
>>>
>>>
>> Oh, and I made the UpdatingScreenshotMorph:
>> http://tracker.immuexa.com/browse/SQ-96
>> The nice thing with it is that if you take a UpdatingScreenShot of
>> a script for example and add in your BookMorph or text
>> you don't have to make a new screenshot if you change the script or
>> language because it updates :-)
>> So if we keep the documentation internal in Squeak as long as
>> possible this could maybe be helpful.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:52:43 -0400
>> From: Timothy Falconer <timothy at squeakland.org>
>> Subject: [squeakland] we have officially overtaken etoys.com in
>> google
>> To: "squeakland.org mailing list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>
>> Message-ID: <E9A8D80A-0C8C-4D56-97EA-0BB81ACEC5B8 at squeakland.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Something surprising and new . . .
>>
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=etoys
>>
>> We're #1, ahead of etoys.com. This is a pretty clear indication
>> of word spreading about us. (Yes etoys.com still sells toys.)
>>
>> We're still very low in "educational software" and similar
>> searches (Alice is on page 6, Scratch much further down).
>>
>> Keep linking to us, that's how it works.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:01:39 -0700
>> From: Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki at vpri.org>
>> Subject: Re: [squeakland] on having two squeakland websites
>> To: "squeakland.org mailing list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>
>> Message-ID: <uws4fy3vg.wl%yoshiki at vpri.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> I finally read the thread...
>>
>>
>>> 8. it's just confusing to have two sites
>>>
>>
>> Maybe this is only the real one and other 9 or 8 items are
>> concequences of it?
>>
>>
>>> C) squeakland is built on storymill, which is not "free and open
>>> source" or written in Squeak itself
>>>
>>
>> Did anybody say that? There was "what you write is different from
>> what I read" aspect in some conversations, but if you are implying
>> what I wrote sometime before, what I wrote was "an openly-available
>> platform" so that one developer can control (by that I meant that the
>> developer can test and look at both the server (like logs and error
>> messages) and client, and not putting anybody on the critical path.
>>
>> But, as people agreed, we go with the plan. So, the question comes
>> down to "when" we really work on it and make it work. Can you tell
>> me
>> (or some other developer) when you have quality time so that can work
>> together?
>>
>> -- Yoshiki
>>
>>
>>> And the last reason, which has not been publicly stated, but I
>>> suspect exists . . .
>>>
>>> D) some people are frustrated with me personally and want the
>>> freedom to change things without me saying "well, what about so
>>> and so"
>>>
>>
>> Well, *if* you follow what you wrote below, you probably name "some
>> people", so that not leaving everybody in the community wondering
>> "hmm, maybe my body language really sucks and I'm giving wrong
>> impression on Tim?"
>>
>> But no, don't do that. Instead, you should just try to "read" what
>> is written as it is, and not to "interpret" too much. That is the
>> key
>> of text-based technical conversation.
>>
>> -- Yoshiki
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:13:19 +0200
>> From: Rita Freudenberg <rita at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
>> Subject: Re: [squeakland] Etoys documentation TOC
>> To: Timothy Falconer <timothy at immuexa.com>
>> Cc: "squeakland.org mailing list" <squeakland at squeakland.org>, etoys
>> dev <etoys-dev at squeakland.org>
>> Message-ID: <4AA0DA2F.3020802 at isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 3, 2009, at 7:23 AM, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 3, 2009, at 7:01 AM, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> as you all know we don't really have an Etoys documentation. So
>>>>> let's start writing it. As I wrote earlier I propose to use
>>>>> FLOSS Manuals. It is used by the olpc and sugar community for
>>>>> writing manuals and books. To get started we should have a TOC
>>>>> outline. Here are my suggestions:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Introduction (short description what etoys is about)
>>>>> 2. Getting started (technical description on how to install and
>>>>> start etoys on different operating systems)
>>>>> 3. User Interface (painting tools, halo, viewer ...)
>>>>> 4. Tiles (describing every available tile)
>>>>> 5. Objects (everything from the supplies bin and object
>>>>> catalogue, flaps)
>>>>>
>>>>> What am I missing? Of course we can have subchapters and also
>>>>> later add main chapters if we find out we need it. Here is the
>>>>> manual for TurtleArt so you can get the idea what our
>>>>> documentation could look like:
>>>>> http://en.flossmanuals.net/turtleart
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think? If we come up with a TOC outline I can send
>>>>> it to Anne Gentle from FLOSS manuals to set it up and we can
>>>>> start writing:)
>>>>>
>>>> It's a good list. So this would be more of a reference manual
>>>> than a getting started guide? (with tutorials)
>>>>
>> Yes, a reference manual is what I had in mind. I'm sorry for not
>> making that clear.
>>
>>>> We could link back to the Etoys unit of the courseware for the
>>>> gentler intro.
>>>>
>>> Also, just want to highlight that we actually do have some
>>> documentation (with even a big PDF):
>>>
>>> http://squeakland.org/tutorials/guides/
>>>
>>> Kathleen's work is concise and useful, and should be used where
>>> possible in the FLOSS version.
>>>
>> Definitely, I will not have the same things written again, but
>> collect it at one place. And since it is a reference manual, it
>> will be shorter than other materials, but complete. As Bert pointed
>> out "it defines the boundary of what we consider officially
>> supported, and what not."
>>
>> Rita
>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Bruno Fagundes Sperb
> cel - 96853758
>
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