Defining the damn 3.9 process! (was Re: SqueakFoundation money)

[stéphane ducasse]

>
> I am implying that the 3.9 team hasn't made any visible steps to  
> show us
> (the Steward teams) how you want to work with us. I didn't mean to  
> make
> it sound "harsh" though - I was more trying to stress that it is
> important to not forget that we now have Steward teams and to make  
> sure
> we start benefiting from that.
>
> I am also implying that there is a culture of fixing things in the  
> image
> (since the dawn of time) instead of taking the time to funnel the  
> fixes
> to the upstream package maintainer. I am saying this primarily as the
> maintainer of SM which has been around for some time and I have  
> seen it
> happen over and over. AFAIK there are several fixes to SM in the image
> that have never been sent to me. Sure, I can pick them up there  
> myself -
> but the point is that people seem to take that for granted. Or they  
> seem
> to still think the image is the master, which it isn't - not for SM.

Goran
let us say it like that.
We cannot wait for central items that a guy has time to harvest its  
own bugs.
Look at MC, MC has changes because they were NEEDED.
Or your package should not be central or you should collect the fixes  
that the
integration needs.


> And btw, even though we haven't been very active yet in the Network  
> team
> - you can't really know how much we are working. For example, today I
> sat scavenging Mantis for Network stuff (and there is plenty to work
> with), but you wouldn't know.

Excellent.
We need a package were we have name associated with packages that we
do not touch. I said that to the website team since people do not  
even know who to
contact. I put my personnal list on the 39todo web page so I can  
remember that I
should not care about Files, Graphics....

> I also highly appreciate what you are doing - I just think you  
> might be
> forgetting or dropping the ball on the Stewards idea.

No look at what is written on the 39 todo page:
"Package owner

Andreas is taking care of Graphics, Balloon, Compression
Cees File
Juan Morphic
Baseline for file is: Files-CdG.13.mcz (this means that we the  
harvesters will not touch it anymore and are waiting for the team  
signal).
"
So what should I do more, write millions of email in the mailing-lists?

> I need you to
> "drive" that process - because you are in charge of 3.9 - which is the
> target for the Stewards teams. And by driving I mean showing how you
> want us to work with you.

Come on.
We have a roadmap.
We have a bug fix archive...

"We have a list of pending items to evaluate on
	- http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5753
	- there are all the pending bugs and fixes on mantis
	- we have a new compiler + method annotation to tests
	- if you want to come up with a process to build the image
	give a try and we will try it.
	- we need a way to speed up the use of MC."

Now lot of changes are implying the Morphic team but they do not have  
the resources
so what can I do. Nothing.

>>> Now, my challenge to the v3.9 team is to concoct a process based on
>>> this. As you can see above the Network team has decided to always  
>>> work
>>> with the latest published image from 3.9 and we will  
>>> produce .mcz's -
>>> both for our package and possible bundled with .mcz's for other
>>> packages
>>> that need to be modified. And we decided that we decide together
>>> when to
>>> push stuff to you guys - typically when we think we have "enough
>>> goodness" bundled up - we don't want to push too often.
>>

Excellent.
Now this is not that simple since some changes affect several  
packages and
should be merged in their homes packages so just publishing in inbox  
will not work
sicne we should know that three packages form a slice.

>> Now, *how* do we "feed" you guys? Do we throw them in your inbox  
>> *and*
>>> send a corresponding mandatory email to the v3.9 list (seems
>>> reasonable)?
>>
>> Yes
>
> Ok, good. Can we get this written down somewhere?

But we already said that.


>>> And if this is a good process - when you decide to muck
>>> about in our package :) how do you handle *us*? We are *upstream*
>>> now -
>>> so I really, really hope you realize that you must respect that (or
>>> else
>>> the Steward idea falls apart from the start)
>>
>> Why are you talking about respect?
>
> I was referring to the fact that seemingly stuff has been happening in
> say Network even after we formed the Stewards team for it. Sure, it
> seems to be mainly UIManager stuff etc, but also some fixes from ac  
> (?)
> got in it seems. And yes, that was Cees doings :) I think, but it
> doesn't matter - my point is that it wasn't pushed to us.

Goran
please do not piss me off
Really please.
I start to be really fed up my this attitude. We did our best to
collect what people were pushing at us.

Now when cees is complaining that we do not react fast enough.
this is totally contradictory with what you are saying.

Do a merge and this will make your ego cool.

>> For me this is simple we do not harvest anything that has a team and
>> we wait
>> that the team push code that we need to integrate. We work until the
>> integration is working.
>
> Good. Perfect. And I am sorry again for bad choice of words. Ok? :)
>
>>> and that you feed your
>>> proposed changes back to us so that we can review, integrate and  
>>> feed
>>> them back to you. Or something like that.


Sure but if people react/have time/...

Goran
we asked at least during a year that fastSocketStream would be  
included in the image
I was always fascinated that people prefer to have a slow socket  
stream in.
I had to say to all the people using seaside that they should load it.
WAS IT CLEVER? no
So as nobody did anything in reaction to our emails, we simply  
included it in the image

Now take your stones and send them to us. Perfect.
get this chance because soon I will not work anymore for squeak (or  
this version of Squeak).

> In fact, I could even be fine with you putting proposed changes  
> directly
> in the image, just as long as you send us an email for us to decide if
> it is fine. Mostly it is probably fine, and if not we can always back
> out. This might work faster - at least for things like the UI work  
> Cees
> did since it spans so many packages. If it is local fixes - then  
> sending
> us an MC is better. Or rather putting it somewhere in a repo that  
> we can
> pick up. An "outbox". :)

Did you open by accident the inbox repo to see in which hell we are  
working?


>>> Ok, now you get an idea of what I would like the definition to
>>> include.
>>
>> Definition of what?
>
> Of what we are describing here. The process for how we work  
> together on
> 3.9 (the 3.9 team + the Stewards teams).

"Package owner

Andreas is taking care of Graphics, Balloon, Compression
Cees File
Juan Morphic
Baseline for file is: Files-CdG.13.mcz (this means that we the  
harvesters will not touch it anymore and are waiting for the team  
signal).
"
So what should I do more, write millions of email in the mailing-lists?


>>> In short - the rules for the flow here.
>>>
>>> regards, Göran
>>>
>>> PS. I am confident we can do this, so let's get it done.
>>
>> Me too.
>
> :) And Stef - sorry if my words came out harsh. Ok?

I can tell you that I'm not in good mood these days.
But I guess that that you guessed it.

Stef