Squeak users (was Re: [Vm-dev] Compiling squeak-vm for Linux 64bit)
bert at freudenbergs.de
Tue Mar 17 13:31:31 UTC 2009
On 17.03.2009, at 13:36, Göran Krampe wrote:
> Really wrong forum, but what the heck.
Wrong indeed. Reply-to set to squeak-dev.
For those coming late: the original thread starts to get interesting
> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> Most in the squeak.org community do not think of Squeak as a
>> product with users, but rather as a tool they only use themselves.
>> E.g., there is even resistance to creating a squeak-users mailing
>> list aimed at Smalltalk developers who just want to use Squeak for
>> developing :/
> Interesting. I wonder if I am one of those "resisting". When I heard
> the idea of creating a squeak-users list I first thought that, no,
> Squeak is not polished enough to be just "used" as a multimedia
> Because I didn't think of "using" to possibly could have meant
> "using for development"! Yeah, call me daft.
Hehe. Well, at least I am trying to always distinguish between "Etoys"
and "Squeak". This was not always necessary, and in particular the
education community refers to Etoys as Squeak out of habit. But around
here "Squeak" means Smalltalk development.
> Another reason is probably that I don't understand why anyone would
> only want to "use" Squeak without any interest in how it is being
> moved forward nor how it works inside. When you develop in Squeak
> you typically invest in its future, so why on earth would you not be
> considering yourself a member of the "squeak-dev" community?
Good question. But when you develop in, say, Python, don't you "invest
in its future"? Still, most Python users would not contribute to
Python directly, right? But indirectly they do.
In my opinion broadening the user base of Squeak would have long-term
benefits. Yes you may get more annoying questions, but that's what the
proposed users list would be for (initially anyway - there might even
be more books if there was a real market). With more Squeak users
there also would be more who jump the fence and become Squeak
developers. Which would cover your next point ...
> Anyway, for other "development tools" I can see myself more clearly
> as a "user" - but a Smalltalk environment is so intertwined with
> itself that I don't see that separation. I also do not like squeak-
> dev turning into some kind of "club for the mighty developers".
> Which is why I was hesitant about the beginners list too - although
> I probably was wrong there.
>> They will have an open ear to your concerns.
> I do think Squeakers in general have a very "open ear" - it is not
> ears we lack, it is time to spend in solving problems that someone
> else has that we lack. :) At least most of us lack it.
> regards, Göran
... which is that each individual only has so much time. But if we had
a larger community and made it really easy to contribute, we'd still
move much faster.
- Bert -
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