[Vm-dev] Concerning Plugins (was: SqueakJS)

[Eliot Miranda]

Hi Bert,

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>
wrote:

>
>
> On 17.11.2014, at 18:07, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 17.11.2014, at 03:17, Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> oops, pressed wrong key.. sending mail before i finished replying..
>> sorry i was thinking you were talking about 'traditional' VM, concerning
>> plugins
>> and so, sidetracked..
>>
>>
>> Then let me change the subject line for you. There we go.
>>
>> so i will comment what is left:
>>
>>> - some plugins are not used at all, for instance i never heard any
>>> discussions (being in mailing lists since 2006 )
>>> related to use of things like Klatt,
>>>
>>>
>>> There is nothing to discuss. It's implemented in pure Slang. I tested
>>> it, it works. Speech Synthesis is cool.
>>>
>>> Cool are not synonym to useful. :)
>>
>>
>> If you think so, then just don't build it.
>>
>> I expect from a Squeak VM to be able to run any old image. There is no
>> good reason it couldn't. That is why we use *virtual* machines, because
>> they can provide exactly the environment our code needs to work, even if
>> the outside world changes.
>>
>
> I disagree.  Cog doesn't run old images so that it can be faster, easier
> to maintain, and easier to evolve.  If it maintained support for all older
> versions it would be much more complex than it already is, and it would be
> significantly slower, essentially because supporting BlockContext correctly
> has deep consequences for the context-to-stack-mapping machinery.  I agree
> its great to have VMs that do run old images.  I don't agree that a
> production VM has to support all those older versions.
>
>
> We were discussing plugins. Doesn't anyone care about subjects anymore? ;)
>

Sorry.  Forgive me.

That said, IMHO I should be able to type "squeak my.image" and have it
> work, no matter what image it is. Making that work is just a packaging
> problem. Easily solvable for e.g. BlockContext and BlockClosure images by
> including both an interpreter and a jit compiler, which should share the
> plugins. At runtime the right one is chosen to run a specific image.
>

Then we are in agreement.


>
> Something similar should happen when I double-click an image in a GUI. I
> find it to be a very bad user experience that currently I have to go
> hunting for a VM that would run a particular image—and there isn't even a
> useful error notifier but the VM just crashes. Not nice at all.
>
> Back to plugins: I simply objected to removing plugins just because they
> are not used in a particular setup. There is no harm in leaving them be.
>

Quite right.  Especially if they're external.

- Bert -
>
>
>
>> And it's not just about old images. It's working fine in Edgar's recent
>> FunSqueak 4.6 image.
>>
>> or Genie
>>>
>>>
>>> Just because *you* don't have a need for a gesture recognizer doesn't
>>> mean it's useless.
>>>
>>>
>> Gesture recognition is indeed useful, especially in presence of modern
>> multi-touch devices.
>> But, tell me who actively maintaining the image-side project that uses
>> Genie plugin?
>> When have you heard/seen it last time were used, able to run and working?
>> Forgive me my suspicion, but it feels like it is long time dead.
>> I do not want to offend anyone, especially authors of this project.. but
>> if software is not actively maintained and updated, it dies with silent
>> death.
>> Of course, as a prudent home-owners, we could put it somewhere in our
>> house (most probably on the attic in big old chest, where we collect all
>> the exceptionally useful things, which are too valuable for our memories to
>> throw them away).
>>
>>
>> Exactly. It's a tiny little plugin, providing a single primitive. It
>> doesn't hurt anyone to have it. If you feel strongly it shouldn't even be
>> in your VM, then you simply don't include it.
>>
>> - Bert -
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> best,
> Eliot
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
best,
Eliot
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