<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-size: 17px; ">Torsten Bergmann wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Andreas Raab wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Let's be a bit careful before jumping heads-on into the Metacello frenzy.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Somehow I knew before that you will respond like this ... ;)<br></blockquote><br>Right. And that's the problem with prejudices. If you expect a response of a certain form you'll find a way to interpret what's being said to match your expectations even though the intention may have been completely different.<br><br>What I was saying to David, not to you, is that we need to make sure that we don't introduce any undue dependencies on Metacello. Given the dependencies of Metacello itself I think there is an actual risk of that happening and I simply wanted to remind David that it's important for us to make sure VMMaker doesn't require Metacello.<br><br>BTW, it is unfair to spam your message to both Squeak-dev and the Pharo list just to paint me as a nay-sayer in the community.<br><br>Cheers,<br> - Andreas<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I don't mind if people choose to use Metacello to load VMMaker but it shouldn't be the only option.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hey - Metacello is "just" a package management tool for Monticello using descriptions of the dependencies and the </blockquote></div></blockquote><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 17px; ">It's is not "just a package manager" it is huge and totally over engineered for the purpose you have in mind. You are talking 40 classes! VMMaker is at a far lower level than Seaside or other things Metacello is being used for.</div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 17px; ">Installer has a mechanism that is much better suited to this purpose, a simple readable DSL for loading things. You can put scripts into InstallerScripts to be loaded using</div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 17px; ">Installer install: 'VMMaker'.</div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 17px; ">this is very simple, and you can publish variants for all different platforms.</div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size: 17px; "><div><blockquote type="cite">versions that fit together. Anything I did was to create such a configuration. Nobody forces you or other developers to use Metacello - having such an (additional) config does not change the way you are working right now. Use Monticello, SqueakSource, ... as you did before. You can continue to use build scripts, installers, SqueakMap, Universe, whatever ... to load VMMaker.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">But currently I dont see none of these "loaders" is well maintained (or only with private scripts), anything I've found was a</blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px; ">What do you need to be maintained. Installer was written in 2006 and has been working fine ever since, has been majorly refactored, and the api has stayed consistent, through all of that time. There is very little to maintain on installer, that is often the key to effective maintenance.</span></div><div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px; ">Sake/Packages just adds dependencies, it too is small and relatively simple. S/P has been relatively stable for a long period. In S/P If you need a package to load, you maintain it. It is for the users to maintain.</span></div><div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 17px; ">I am certainly not convinced as to why you need Metacello, to achieve what Installer used to do in one class.</div><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size: 17px; "><div><blockquote type="cite"> decription from David (see last mail) on the web. And how often does one ask which packages in which version fit<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">together to get VMMaker or other Squeak projects to work. Try to rebuild the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">SqueakSource server and you know what I'm talking about!<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Providing and maintaining a metacello spec is simple and works. And the<br></blockquote></div></blockquote><div style="font-size: 17px; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 17px; ">I don't agree. Nothing about Metacello strikes me as simple. </div></div><br style="font-size: 17px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;">I could comment on the rest of your post, I basically disagree with pretty much everything you say.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;">Can Metacello publish and use definitions on a web page or wiki, can it load from squeakmap, or universes, can it access published bug fixes, can you override with your own local definitions, can it bootstrap from the source.st code inside a monticello package.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;">If you look at the range of functionality in the existing tools we have had for along time, Metacello really isn't offering anything of interest, and is certainly overkill for VMMaker.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;">cheers</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;">Keith</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 17px;"><br></span></font></div></body></html>