<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Jan 18, 2012, at 11:05 11PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Eliot Miranda <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eliot.miranda@gmail.com">eliot.miranda@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:54 PM, Henrik Johansen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:henrik.s.johansen@veloxit.no" target="_blank">henrik.s.johansen@veloxit.no</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div>On Jan 18, 2012, at 8:02 50PM, Eliot Miranda wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:25 AM, Henrik Johansen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:henrik.s.johansen@veloxit.no" target="_blank">henrik.s.johansen@veloxit.no</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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I really don't see what good could come of it being available in general…<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can think of one good use, which my file tried to illustrate. If Symbol instances identity hashes were derived from their string hash then they would be hashed the same in all images. One can take advantage of this in e.g. method dictionary layout and hence binary class loading. This happens in two steps.</div>
<div><br></div><div>With modern machines, where linear search through a dictionary is fast, and with a JIT with inline cacheing (and even an interpreter with a large method lookup cache), where method dictionaries are not looked at much, one can save a significant amount of space by making method dictionaries flat pair-wise arrays of selector, method. Most method dictionaries are small and linear search is faster than fetching the Symbol's identity hash and doing a hash probe. By ordering method dictionaries by selector identityHash, very large method dictionaries such as Object's are indexed using binary search. We saved about 8% of the image size in VisualWorks by moving to this representation (one saves on eliminating the nils in the selector vector and the value vector, and in eliminating the value vector/method array, hence saving its header space; you still need the space for the method). [The savings in Squeak look to be much less; I just found that he same overhead in the 4.3 trunk image is only ~ 1.7%].</div>
<div><br></div><div>Now, if in addition selector identityHashes are deterministic, derived from their string hash, then one does not need to rehash/reorder a method dictionary when loading it from a binary stream (e.g. Fuel), which is again a win.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Now, I'm not suggesting we do either of these things now, but making Symbol identity hashes deterministic, derived from their string hash, can enable significant optimisation further down the road.</div>
</div></blockquote><br></div><div>And I wasn't suggesting it is a bad thing to use in all cases, but rather protesting having a method in the image screaming "use me if you need to change identityHash for whatever reason!" There's just no good general comment to put there on when it might be a good idea, and "Don't use this unless you know what you're doing!" never seems to stop anyone (well, speaking on my own behalf at least…)</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'd rather see usage defined on a case-by-case basis, where you can more explicitly comment why using it in this particular case is a good idea, like you wrote above, and what Mariano mentioned for proxies.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So rather than: </div><div><br></div><div>Object setIdentityHashTo: aNumber</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><primitive: 161></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div>
<div><br></div><div>you have:</div><div><br></div><div>Symbol >> initialize</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>self deriveIdentityHashFrom: self hash</div><div><br></div><div>Symbol >> deriveIdentityHashFrom: aNumber</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"This should ONLY be called as part of object initialization!"</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"Symbols benefit from not using the default identityHash by *insert Eliots explanation here*"</div>
<div><br></div><div>and similar for Mariano's Proxy class.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Henry</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Good idea! </div></div><br></blockquote><div><br>Wait...I am slower than Eliot ;)<br>
so...deriveIdentityHashFrom: should be with the primitive call, right? otherwise I am lost.<br><br><div>Symbol >> deriveIdentityHashFrom: aNumber</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"This should ONLY be called as part of object initialization!"</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"Symbols benefit from not using the default identityHash by *insert Eliots explanation here*"</div>
<div> <primitive: 161> </div></div></div></blockquote>Yes, exactly like it is in his change set example which I'd missed :/</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Henry</div></body></html>