<div dir="ltr">Hi Bert,<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Bert Freudenberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bert@freudenbergs.de" target="_blank">bert@freudenbergs.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div>On 17.11.2014, at 18:07, Eliot Miranda <<a href="mailto:eliot.miranda@gmail.com" target="_blank">eliot.miranda@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Bert Freudenberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bert@freudenbergs.de" target="_blank">bert@freudenbergs.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br><div style="word-wrap:break-word">On 17.11.2014, at 03:17, Igor Stasenko <<a href="mailto:siguctua@gmail.com" target="_blank">siguctua@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>oops, pressed wrong key.. sending mail before i finished replying..<br></div>sorry i was thinking you were talking about 'traditional' VM, concerning plugins<br></div>and so, sidetracked..<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Then let me change the subject line for you. There we go.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">so i will comment what is left: </div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">- some plugins are not used at all, for instance i never heard any discussions (being in mailing lists since 2006 )<br>related to use of things like Klatt,</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is nothing to discuss. It's implemented in pure Slang. I tested it, it works. Speech Synthesis is cool.</div><br></div></blockquote><div>Cool are not synonym to useful. :)</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you think so, then just don't build it.</div><div><br></div><div>I expect from a Squeak VM to be able to run any old image. There is no good reason it couldn't. That is why we use *virtual* machines, because they can provide exactly the environment our code needs to work, even if the outside world changes.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I disagree. Cog doesn't run old images so that it can be faster, easier to maintain, and easier to evolve. If it maintained support for all older versions it would be much more complex than it already is, and it would be significantly slower, essentially because supporting BlockContext correctly has deep consequences for the context-to-stack-mapping machinery. I agree its great to have VMs that do run old images. I don't agree that a production VM has to support all those older versions.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We were discussing plugins. Doesn't anyone care about subjects anymore? ;)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry. Forgive me.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div>That said, IMHO I should be able to type "squeak my.image" and have it work, no matter what image it is. Making that work is just a packaging problem. Easily solvable for e.g. BlockContext and BlockClosure images by including both an interpreter and a jit compiler, which should share the plugins. At runtime the right one is chosen to run a specific image.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Then we are in agreement.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div><br></div><div>Something similar should happen when I double-click an image in a GUI. I find it to be a very bad user experience that currently I have to go hunting for a VM that would run a particular image—and there isn't even a useful error notifier but the VM just crashes. Not nice at all.</div><div><br></div><div>Back to plugins: I simply objected to removing plugins just because they are not used in a particular setup. There is no harm in leaving them be.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Quite right. Especially if they're external.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><span style="font-size:12px">- Bert -</span><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12px"><br></span></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br></div><div>And it's not just about old images. It's working fine in Edgar's recent FunSqueak 4.6 image.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> or Genie</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just because *you* don't have a need for a gesture recognizer doesn't mean it's useless.</div><br></div></blockquote><div> </div><div>Gesture recognition is indeed useful, especially in presence of modern multi-touch devices. <br></div><div>But, tell me who actively maintaining the image-side project that uses Genie plugin?<br></div><div>When have you heard/seen it last time were used, able to run and working?<br></div><div>Forgive me my suspicion, but it feels like it is long time dead.<br></div><div>I do not want to offend anyone, especially authors of this project.. but if software is not actively maintained and updated, it dies with silent death.<br></div><div>Of course, as a <span lang="en">prudent home-owners, we could put it somewhere in our house (most probably on the attic in big old chest, where we collect all the exceptionally useful things, which are too valuable for our memories to throw them away).</span> </div></div></div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Exactly. It's a tiny little plugin, providing a single primitive. It doesn't hurt anyone to have it. If you feel strongly it shouldn't even be in your VM, then you simply don't include it. </div><br><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px;font-family:'Lucida Grande';font-size:12px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div style="font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-family:Helvetica">- Bert -</span></div></div></span></div><br></div><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div>best,<div>Eliot</div></div>
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<br></div><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature">best,<div>Eliot</div></div>
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