<div dir="ltr">Hi Tim,<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Tim Felgentreff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:timfelgentreff@gmail.com" target="_blank">timfelgentreff@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br>Hi Eliot, <div><br></div><div>the question for me is, how indicative is this workload of real world performance? Creating compiled methods may not be something that is highly optimized, simply because it doesn't need to be in real applications. One would have to be careful about what is being measured, or if the benchmark is just measuring how fast we can blow out the caches... </div><div><br></div><div>If we're just talking about running parsing and optimizing something, then maybe some real world applications are using that, but even then some JSON or HTML parsing library that implements e.g. Apache mod_rewrite would be more realistic, I think. Dynamically parsing and patching HTML and then pretty-printing or minimizing it seems a more common problem.</div><div><br></div><div>I know, you're trying to argue that the Opal compiler may show common workloads equally well, but we could argue that for some of the Shootout benchmarks, too. It's an argument that doesn't seem to convince some people.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't care in this case. I'm happy to include those other benchmarks. I just want to include one Smalltalk-centric benchmark that exemplifies excellent Smalltalk style and that uses the language to its full extent. One is likely to find that in a Smalltalk compiler; it's written by experts in the language, and I know that the Opal compiler is particularly clean. The point here is to have a benchmark that shows how well Scorch/Sista optimists an exemplary Smalltalk workload, not a generic workload to enable comparisons between languages. I'm as interested in seeing how fast Scorch/Sista is w.r.t. the Interpreter, the StackInterpreter, the V3 Cog VM and the Spur Cog VM, as in seeing how fast generic benchmarks are compared to other language implementations.</div><div><br></div><div>In any case I wouldn't be interested in installing the methods that the benchmark compiler would generate, only interested in its source -> compiled method transformation. Installing measures all sorts of JIT related hacks that are irrelevant to compute performance.<br></div><div><br></div><div>And of course, taking a snapshot of a specific Smalltalk compiler at a given point in time and sticking with it gives us much less of a moving target (collections etc will still affect things).</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Eliot Miranda <<a href="mailto:eliot.miranda@gmail.com" target="_blank">eliot.miranda@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Do., 23. März 2017, 17:18:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">Hi Tim,<div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Tim Felgentreff <span dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><<a href="mailto:timfelgentreff@gmail.com" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">timfelgentreff@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><p dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">Yes, big benchmarks would be nice. Those on <a href="http://speed.squeak.org" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">speed.squeak.org</a> or in VMMaker are all somewhat small.</p>
<p dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">Note the Ruby community, for example, has benchmarks such as a NES emulator (optcarrot) that can run for a few thousand frames with predefined input as benchmarks. It's definitely possible.</p>
<p dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">Maybe some of the projects from HPI students could be made to work, there was a Chip8 emulator in Squeak, for example, that seems big enough. Or maybe the DCPU emulator at <a href="http://github.com/fniephaus/BroDCPU" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">github.com/fniephaus/BroDCPU</a> without a frame limit would work as a decent CPU bound benchmark.</p></blockquote><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">I've discussed with Clément doing something like cloning the Opal compiler, or the Squeak compiler, so that it uses a fixed set of classes that won't change over time, excepting the collections, and using as a benchmark this compiler recompiling all its own methods. This is a nice mix of string processing (in the tokenizer) and symbolic processing (in the building and optimizing of the parse tree).</div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><blockquote class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"> </p>
<p dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">Cross - dialect could be hard. Pharo and Squeak are fairly easy to do, but with larger programs staying compatible across different dialects is harder.</p></blockquote><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">Again, extracting a compiler from its host system would make it possible to maintain a cross-platform version. It could be left as an exercise to the reader to port it to one's favorite non-Smalltalk dynamic language.</div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">tim Rowledge <<a href="mailto:tim@rowledge.org" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">tim@rowledge.org</a>> schrieb am Mi., 22. März 2017, 21:40:<br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
> On 21-03-2017, at 4:53 PM, Javier Pimás <<a href="mailto:elpochodelagente@gmail.com" class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">elpochodelagente@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
><br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
> Hi everybody! While measuring performance I usually face the problem of assessing performance.<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
Have you tried the benchmarks package - CogBenchmarks - included in the <a href="http://source.squeak.org/VMMaker" rel="noreferrer" class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">source.squeak.org/VMMaker</a> repository?<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
tim<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
--<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
tim Rowledge; <a href="mailto:tim@rowledge.org" class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">tim@rowledge.org</a>; <a href="http://www.rowledge.org/tim" rel="noreferrer" class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://www.rowledge.org/tim</a><br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
Strange OpCodes: BOMB: Burn Out Memory Banks<br class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432m_-5688514755156296794gmail_msg m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">
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<br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="gmail_extra m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br clear="all" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div>-- <br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208m_5995572859454461432gmail_signature m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><span style="font-size:small;border-collapse:separate" class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">_,,,^..^,,,_<br class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg"></div><div class="m_-6008673387328647208gmail_msg">best, Eliot</div></span></div></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:small;border-collapse:separate"><div>_,,,^..^,,,_<br></div><div>best, Eliot</div></span></div></div></div>
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