etoys-dev August 2007

etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

20 participants
49 discussions

[Etoys] some comments
by carla gomez monroy 13 Sep '07

13 Sep '07

eToys team, eToys, I love it. It is so powerful. However, for some people it can be quite intimidating to get a blank screen when they click on "Make A New Project." The Demo is nice but it for example doesn't say "click on the right (circle) button to get the icons for manipulating the object" The Tutorial and the Gallery of Projects, children see them as games not as things they can make or modify. The use of eToys may not seem that intuitive from the perspective of teachers or students who have just received an XO laptop and it is the first laptop or even computer they have ever touched. I have given to the teachers in printed form * powerful ideas in the classroom * eToys quick guide * eToys manual and the three together are ~200 pages long. And some won't try it by themselves until someone sits with them and goes through it. Maybe more so if they are rural primary teachers. Some might be inclined to just learn the basics and stay there. How can we go about it so they feel curious about trying it, and keep on learning on their own or with their peers or their students? I'm thinking on how can we do it, that it doesn't need a full time person introducing it, or if so, how can it be in a short short time. Best regards, Carla

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[Etoys] New version
by root＠crank.laptop.org 31 Aug '07

31 Aug '07

Updating from f961448769e3c627d16b7a87f8537f48ec067b64 to edc1ce6e144bcbce2868b084615242ee9ee54820 Fast forward ChangeLog | 200 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++ Content.revision | 2 - NEWS | 49 +++++++++++++ etoys.spec | 50 +++++++++++++- 4 files changed, 299 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) commit edc1ce6e144bcbce2868b084615242ee9ee54820 Author: Takashi Yamamiya <tak(a)metatoys.org> Date: Fri Aug 31 12:36:51 2007 -0700 - 2.1.1557-1 - content rev. 35 - 1575QuickGuide2-yo.cs: Remove player in the IndexPage prototype. - 1574WindowEvents-JMM-bf.cs: Add WindowEvent handling, based on JMM's Ffenestri-b-4-Events-Morphic.1.cs. - 1573baloonWording-yo.cs: Change the wording in baloon help for the supplies tab. - 1572fixAlphaInThumb-yo.cs: fix alpha channel of thumbnails. - 1571QuickGuide1-yo.cs: First cut of quick guide index viewer system. - 1570FixInspectProps-sw-yo.cs: Fixes inspect property in the debug menu. - 1569OLPCDisplayCopy-yo.cs: Copy shouldn't be made for the display. - 1568player-ref-tk.cs: Fixes bug that prevented the Revert feature of bookmorphs from working. - 1567BookIcon-tak.cs: Better next and previous button for BookMorph. - 1566safeFailDbus-yo.cs: Ignore error when the VM doesn't have DBus plugin. - 1565transformRestore-sw.cs: Restore the change of 1552TransformFix. - 1564projectViewIssues-sw.cs: TRAC 2888: Makes project-view icons obey the acceptDrops flag governed in the halo menu. - 1563picker-yo-sw.cs: TRAC 2831: Remove all uses of Sensor in color-picking, thus allowing event-replays of modal color picking to work. - 1562noEmptyMenus-sw.cs: TRAC 2808: Don't show a menu icon in a viewer for a slot/variable which would have no menu items to offer in such a menu. - 1561fullScreenBook-sw.cs: TRAC 2825: When exiting full-screen mode of a BookMorph, restore the original position of the book. - 1560evtRecorderItems-sw.cs: TRAC 2830: Remove the old EventRecorder from the Objects catalog. - 1559editBalloonText-sw.cs: TRAC 2826 - Move the edit-balloon-text command from the debug menu to the extras menu, thus making it available to all users. - 1558bookControls-sw.cs: TRAC 2820: Add an option allowing book controls to appear at top *or* bottom of the book - 1557arrowPointingUp-sw.cs: TRAC 2867 - Make the arrow obtained from the objects catalog start out life pointing upward and with a heading of 0 to match. - 1556gettextUtils-tak.cs: Verify and export all gettext files. - 1555TransWorldMenu-KR.cs: make WorldMenu translatable - 1554transformRevert-sw.cs: Revert the change in 1552TransformFix, at least for the time being. - 1553TransScriptor-KR.cs: translation stuff for scriptor menu/ goldbox - 1552TransformFix-ar.cs: A small fix for FormCanvas' transform methods due to the fact that WarpBlt wants to know its sourceForm before setting the cellSize svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/svn/trunk/etoys' svn: PROPFIND of '/svn/trunk/etoys': could not connect to server (http://etoys.laptop.org) Creating http://etoys.laptop.org/src/etoys-image-and-pr.zip -rw-rw-r-- 1 bert etoys 16724278 Aug 12 23:30 etoys-image-and-pr.zip

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[Etoys] Implicit saving
by Bert Freudenberg 31 Aug '07

31 Aug '07

The implicit saving on activity close gets in the way of how etoys traditionally worked. If I create, say, a simulation, I will arrange everything and then save that project, so when I later open it for demonstration, it is in a state ready to be started. But when I then run the simulation and quit, it will not be in the ready-to-run state anymore. Any idea how that problem should be tackled in Sugar? - Bert -

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[Etoys] #3062 NORM Untriag: Etoys closed without saving
by Zarro Boogs per Child 31 Aug '07

31 Aug '07

#3062: Etoys closed without saving ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Reporter: bert | Owner: etoys Type: defect | Status: new Priority: normal | Milestone: Untriaged Component: etoys-activity | Version: Keywords: | Verified: 0 ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- When stopping etoys from the home view it does not save to the datastore. The VM needs to signal an event so the current project can be saved before quitting. Can anybody confirm that Sugar is using the WM_DELETE_WINDOW protocol (http://tronche.com/gui/x/icccm/sec-4.html#s-4.2.8.1) to close an activity? -- Ticket URL: <http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3062> One Laptop Per Child <http://laptop.org/>

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[Etoys] some comments
by Tony Forster 31 Aug '07

31 Aug '07

Thanks Alan for an insightful view on "gaining enlightenment" through game making. Exposure to a complex thinking environment does not of itself lead to deep thinking or enlightenment. You mention "Zen and the Art of Archery" , a similar argument was put in ON THE COGNITIVE EFFECTS OF LEARNING COMPUTER PROGRAMMING, ROY D. PEA and D. MIDIAN KURLAND 1984 http://scil.stanford.edu/about/staff/bios/PDF/Cog_Effects_Prog where Pea quite successfully argues, I think, that the case for Logo had been used many times before in other domains: "This belief, although new in its application to this domain, is an old idea in a new costume which has been worn often before. In its common extreme form, it is based on an assumption about learning - that spontaneous experience with a powerful symbolic system will have beneficial cognitive consequences, especially for higher order cognitive skills. Similar arguments have been offered in centuries past for mathematics, logic, writing systems, and Latin" What this analysis overlooks is engagement. The levels of achievement are quite astounding for kids who are offered a relevant and authentic challenge and the right tools. Then the "powerful symbolic system" does have "beneficial cognitive consequences" . Maybe not the enlightenment that we would hope for but at least an understanding of mathematics, logic, kinematics, also social skills, affective benefits "I like school" and metacognitive or self regulatory benefits. I think it essential that etoys is at least as motivating as Game Maker and at least as easy at the entry level. I think there is a lot to learn from teachers like Bill who have a long track record of successfully using such tools and getting exceptional results from them.

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[Etoys] Window events
by Bert Freudenberg 30 Aug '07

30 Aug '07

To solve trac #3062, Ian added VM support for a close window event. Now we need image code for this. The original support code is here: ftp://smalltalkconsulting.com/experimental/Ffenestri/Ffenestri-b-4- Events-Morphic.1.cs it basically adds a windowIndex field to each MorphicEvent plus a new event class (WindowEvent). The window index would be used to distinguish mouse events in different windows (so it is constant for us, we only have one OS window). The new WindowEvent would be what we are interested in, as we get this when the etoys activity is closed. Does anybody see a downside to including that changeset verbatim? I haven't compared it to the current code in the image in detail yet. It does a bit more than we need right now, sow we could strip it down, OTOH, I suspect this will land in the the squeak.org version sooner or later so having it should not be bad. Opinions? - Bert -

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Re: [Etoys] some comments
by Alan Kay 30 Aug '07

30 Aug '07

Hi Bill -- What follows is not an argument against (a) using a game making approach (great for some kids) or (b) the worth of getting all children to learn to program (probably a good idea). What we need to contemplate is the probability of "gaining enlightenment" by being in contact with various kinds of environments and epistemologies. If we look at the class of "those who know how to program" we see a generally unenlightened group (maybe similar to humans in general, maybe even less enlightened). In any case, we have to conclude there is nothing intrinsic about learning to program that leads to deeper thoughts. One of our rueful jokes about the Logo vogue in the 80s is that everything would be OK if we could just package Seymour on the floppies! I think it would be even easier to justify the same generalization about gamers and game makers. Or about archers ... There was an intriguing book in the 60s zeitgeist called "Zen and the Art of Archery" by Herrigel, that made a similiar point: learning archery doesn't confer any automatic enlightenment, but it could be used as a path if much were added to standard training. Or about any activity that requires concentration, focus and learning. My grandfather Clifton Johnson (a writer and illustrator of many books and also an early photographer) once got asked in 1904 to write an article for the Saturday Evening Post on whether photography could be an art form. He said "Art enters in when one labors thoughtfully over a goal; that is, when one cuts loose from actions that are merely mechanical". It's in that space of "laboring thoughtfully" where there are opportunities for enlightenment. "Enlightenment about what?" brings up the environmental influences. I don't think that archery or cooking (or photography) are cosmically interesting -- so the kinds of enlightenments in these environments are likely to be personal ones, but with some flashes of "the world is not as it seems". On the other hand, if science is the environment, and one is dealing with its huge epistemological differences with commonsense perceptions -- that is: science has much of cosmic significance in its purview -- then there are great and deep opportunities for enlightenment. (But no guarantees here either, just higher probabilities.) My interest in education is not as a form of vocational training or preparation, but in helping children to become adults who are more thoughtful, and whose perspectives for thinking are much wider and deeper than the adults of today. The built-in "universals" that are destructive to human growth can be countered to a considerable extent by a modern "real education" that includes powerful invented points of view (the "powerful ideas") that act almost as additional brain/minds and can form a much stronger and less brittle heuristic base for thinking well under wider conditions. In the end, the epistemology of science can lead to many more and better perspectives on the human condition, and this is where I think education should and must go. Whether children learn computers or not is not the issue for me (nor even whether they gain math or science knowledge) -- it's whether they can gain clearer perspectives on "us and what to do about us" that is critical here. The established Arts -- including writing -- have as one of their main properties to provide other perspectives and wake-up calls, but they have been less effective than one would hope: they are generally too easily overwhelmed by distracting media, and they have enough story elements that they tend to be compartmentalized (as is the natural case with stories). On the other hand, even though our brain/minds want to make stories out of everything (and judge them by how apt they seem), science stubbornly tries to rise above our "storyminds" to help us make representations of the "what's out there" that are much more accurate "maps and models" (especially including accurate maps and models of ourselves). This is what we need to concentrate on when trying to design new educational experiences. I don't think we are doing very well at these grand goals for education at the moment, but we haven't forgotten them in all the technical flurries that accompany the invention of new media to hold new ways to look at important ideas. Cheers, Alan At 10:21 PM 8/29/2007, Bill Kerr wrote: >hi paulo, > >Thank you for the link to squeakcmi, it looks >great, I'll spend some time there > >I'm a secondary teacher and in the past few >years I've mainly been using GameMaker - but now >think Squeak / Etoys is potentially more >powerful for a variety of reasons which I have >articulated a little but it needs improvement > >The Game Making approach is flavour of the month >and is good for motivation and engagement of >many students (not all). Also many teachers are >engaged by the concept. I received hundreds of >emails from teachers in just one state of >Australia when I initially promoted Game Maker a >few years ago. However, it is also true that >many teachers oppose Game Maker because they >don't see a clear link to curriculum, some see it as pandering to populism. > >Both you and alan have mentioned this outlook, >to quote from alan in this thread: "a >productively environment (Scratch is aimed at >productivity) and an educational one (EToys is more aimed in this direction)" > >I sort of agree with this approach but am also >torn. Game Maker is unashamedly populist, the >focus is absolutely clear from its name. So kids >end up programming on an inferior platform - no >morphic, no late binding, Windows only, >proprietary code. It would be nice if more young >people spontaneously picked up on etoys / >squeak, that it could generate that sort of >appeal. The way kids view school these days to >promote something as "educational" is almost the kiss of death!! > >I would see Etoys / Squeak as more powerful than >either Scratch or Game Maker. I wouldn't see >young students moving over from Etoys to Scratch >as a step upwards, it seems more like a step backwards to me. > >I like the low entry, high ceiling approach. You >don't need the high ceiling for all students but >in any group a small proportion of hackers >emerges, say 5%, which does need the high >ceiling. One aim ought to be to encourage that >advanced group, one thing they do is drag the general level upwards > >For the students I teach (secondary) the quality >of their sprites is very important. I have seen >them abandon their game making projects simply >because they couldn't find the sprites they wanted on the web. > >I'm still a beginner with etoys / squeak but >have done more study recently and now understand >how the morphic approach fits in to etoys (the >Player class, prototyping approach). > >What I'm saying is that it would be good to have >multiple pathways into etoys, not always >starting with a painting, which is a v strong >default at the moment. This would probably mean >the ability from the start to select a variety >of morphs from a supplies or widgets tab, which >is a feature of eg. my squeak 3.8 full image but >not a feature of the OLPC/etoys image. You only >get the paint option. I can't find the world >menu to access morphs in that way at all in the >etoys image so I'm wondering about the design >decisions that have been made in this case and the rationale behind them. > >I think what you and alan will say is that the >target group for the OLPC is ages 6 to 12, one >of the core_principles: ><http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles>http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles > >Fair enough but I think for this group my >comments still do have some relevance, so I'll send to the list as well > >cheers, >- Bill >-- >Bill Kerr ><http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/ > > >On 8/27/07, Paulo Drummond ><<mailto:ptdrumm@terra.com.br> ptdrumm(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > >On Aug 26, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Bill Kerr wrote: > >>On 8/25/07, carla gomez monroy >><<mailto:carla@laptop.org> carla(a)laptop.org> wrote: >> >>However, for some people it can be quite >>intimidating to get a blank screen when they click on "Make A New Project." >> >> >>I'm wondering why the first step is always to >>make a painting - and then when you keep the >>painting you have an object and can then do >>more powerful things at that point. > >Imho, the first step is to understand a little >of this environment and what was the idea behind >Etoys. Depending on the age/grade, the deepness >varies. However, the teacher has a crucial role >here: to understand it first. The book "Powerful >Ideas in the Classroom" is of enormous value. > >The next expected step for a child (in this >environment) is to create an object. Children >usually like to pictorially represent their >world. They need to express it as they need to >situate themselves in the surrounding society. Contextualize. > >They can also use other predefined objects like >ellipses/circles, rectangles/squares etc to >complement their painting, or give a more >"realistic" display of their object-symbols. >Conversely, they may use the paint palete to >"personalize" some geometrical primitives they've place in their world. > >It has been demonstrated >(<http://www.squeakcmi.org>http://www.squeakcmi.org) >that kids at initial grades can use Etoys as a >starting point to understand it and to express >their ideas, paving the way to more advanced >representations using the very same environment. > >>A naive user might think it is just a paint >>program. Also some people don't like painting >>or are not good at it, eg. me. Also it's hard to paint well with a mouse. > >Children can use Etoys as a mapping tool. >Actually they don't give a penny about accuracy, >just because they don't need to. Adults >generally do, even not knowing a bit of its usefulness. > >>Why not have prepackaged sprites which can be >>loaded immediately (as well as the painting >>option)? Then the user is one step closer to >>the more powerful stuff. It also sends a >>message that it is not just a paint program - >>there has to be more to it than just loading a sprite >> >>LogoWriter, MicroWorlds and GameMaker all have prepackaged sprites > >Then Squeak Etoys would be another thing. When >not-so-young kids need a more sophisticated >expression-driven, more in the realm of >productivity authoring tools with many of the >programmatic aspects of Etoys, they may go to another great tool: Scratch. > >>I have given to the teachers in printed form >> * powerful ideas in the classroom >> >> >>I think *all* of the book, Powerful ideas in >>the classroom, should be available on the web. >>The car tutorial on squeakland is great but >>it's not enough. There are some good pdfs on >>squeakland too but the site is poorly organised > >Afaik, a new squeakland website is in the works. > >>and it took me ages to find them. I wrote a >>blog about the frustrating but eventually >>successful search for etoy resources here: >><http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/04/frustrating-but-eventually-successful…>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/04/frustrating-but-eventually-successful… >> >> >>It would be good to have a comprehensive help >>manual in one place. Pop up help is good but >>sometimes more detail is needed. Such a manual >>would probably be used more by teachers than by >>students but that is still useful. > >I could not agree more. Etoys documentation is >really very scarce and sparse. With the help of >the Squeakland community worldwide, these things >are starting to show up here and there. It has >been posted in <http://laptop.org>laptop.org's >[Community-news] that the Etoys dev team has >started a discussion about this issue. > > paulo > > > >_______________________________________________ >Etoys mailing list >Etoys(a)lists.laptop.org >http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/etoys

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[Etoys] inspect properties
by antonio 30 Aug '07

30 Aug '07

Hello With etoys-dev-2.1-1568.image, At Menu button (from Halo) debug... inspect properties has problems, for example: EllipseMorph(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #inspectMorphsProperties. etoys(a)lists.laptop.org is the best mail for these questions? Thanks for all!

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[Etoys] #2976 NORM Untriag: etoys should set _NET_WM_PID hint
by Zarro Boogs per Child 30 Aug '07

30 Aug '07

#2976: etoys should set _NET_WM_PID hint ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Reporter: danw | Owner: etoys Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: normal | Milestone: Untriaged Component: etoys-activity | Version: Keywords: | Verified: 0 ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- The code to make activities take up space in the home activity ring proportional to their memory usage depends on having activities set the _NET_WM_PID hint on their windows. Gtk-based activities get this automatically, but Etoys doesn't, meaning it always shows up as taking the minimum possible space for an activity (despite the fact that actually it's using quite a lot of memory). This patch to squeak fixes that. -- Ticket URL: <http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/2976> One Laptop Per Child <http://laptop.org/>

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[Etoys] #3073 LOW Untriag: Rebuilding the object catalog causes black screen when Scale To Fit mode.
by Zarro Boogs per Child 29 Aug '07

29 Aug '07

#3073: Rebuilding the object catalog causes black screen when Scale To Fit mode. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Reporter: Takashi | Owner: etoys Type: defect | Status: new Priority: low | Milestone: Untriaged Component: etoys-activity | Version: Keywords: | Verified: 0 ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Choose display mode to Scale To Fit. do it: PartsBin rebuildIconsWithProgress. So the screen goes black, and no way to escape. This bug is reported by Kim at first. (It is not common use case, and I set it as low priority) -- Ticket URL: <http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3073> One Laptop Per Child <http://laptop.org/>

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etoys-dev August 2007