etoys-dev April 2010

etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

20 participants
34 discussions

Re: [squeakland] Re: the reasons for ranking
by Karl Ramberg 09 Jun '10

09 Jun '10

On 2009-09-30 17:20, Kim Rose wrote: > Hey, John, > > Nice to see you are still around and interested -- hope you are doing > well. Thanks for the comments. > > As for me and Viewpoints -- there is one reason only for ranking and > that is filtering in an attempt to bring the best educational examples > and those illustrative of etoys' strengths to the attention of the > community. So, I, for one, am hoping that those "voting" are not > voting for any particular child, author or person, but for the example > itself -- I hope those voting/ranking are asking "is this a fine > exemplar to help teach a concept, principle, or powerful idea?". The > more the example answers back with a "yes" the higher the rank. Also, > the more complete an example the higher the rank. How disclosing of > what the Etoy is meant to do is in the example? Does it have an > explanation of what it is? If it is a game does it have instruction > on how to play and the goal of the game? A googlish way of ranking is to use links/ references to a projects. If teachers/users could make a group or curriculum of projects on the site, we could rank from the refs to projects. I tried to rank a few project, but it's quite hard to do. There are to many things to consider. I'm not a teacher, so for me to rank appropriateness of a project for a classroom situation is not really realistic Karl > > I hope that teachers who encourage their students to upload projects > will *only* allow sharing if their student provides an "About" flap, > or some intro/explanation of the Etoy and some instruction on where to > start, the aim of the project, etc. The most beautiful simulation of > something will fall completely flat with someone if they have no real > idea of what they are looking at or what the script they are playing > with is meant to do. Etoys are intended to teach and help us learn; > learning cannot occur without context. No author should assume their > project will be self disclosing; it will not. Our users have a > variety of levels of expertise in both Etoys and subject matter areas; > providing more context can only help. > > If there is no "ranking" in place and everything is posted the > offerings soon get overwhelming and most difficult to navigate. We > found this years ago when we had an active "super-swiki". Projects > that were no more than a single sketch with no script at all were > posted and only "muddied the waters" for those wading in an attempt to > find something with some meaningful content. > > I hope the community will bear this in mind when "ranking" what gets > uploaded and understand that not everyone can be represented in a > featured showcase. > -- Kim > > > On Sep 30, 2009, at 7:58 AM, voiklis wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I apologize for joining this conversation so late; I am a longtime, >> though recently quiet, member of the community. >> >> I understand that the ranking system is an attempt to enable people >> to judge the quality of a contribution (or contributor) based on some >> directly observable measure of reputation. On first sight, one could >> argue that such a system overcomes the problem that in the >> face-to-face world reputation is not directly observable. In order to >> get an honest assessment of a person's reputation, one has to invest >> a lot of time building trust with the people familiar with that >> person. Even then, a trustworthy assessment requires direct >> observation of the person's actions. >> >> A ranking system would appear to reduce that effort by half; knowing >> the person's reputation among his/her peers, one only needs to assess >> the work. >> >> The problem with that reasoning is that electronic ranking systems >> are highly susceptible to manipulation. Building reputation becomes >> the goal of the activity for many people and they use all sorts of >> seemingly harmless social and technological means to inflate their >> numbers. Our lab has been studying this phenomenon through both >> observational studies of online communities and laboratory >> experiments. The two papers below report on the phenomenon as it >> presents itself in Digg, the news aggregation site. >> >> The first paper demonstrates that a tit-for-tat game of reciprocity >> inflates the reputation of contributors and their contributions >> without reflecting anything substantive about their contributions. >> The second paper really brings out the negative consequences of this >> phenomenon. The paper reports on an experiment where people judged >> how interesting they found the contribution. The ranking values of >> the articles were set by the investigator; sometime the rank of the >> article was set high, at other times low. Experimental subjects rated >> higher-ranked contributions as more interesting than lower ranked >> contributions. The same article was rated as highly interesting when >> its rank was set high and uninteresting when ranked low. Duncan Watts >> (of small-world networks fame) observed the same phenomenon with >> music rating. >> >> What this means in the present discussion is that people will likely >> ignore low ranking contributions. Worse still, when they do actually >> look at those contributions they are likely to see what the ranking >> value led them to expect rather than the qualities of the >> contribution itself. >> >> Unless we can find scientific research that demonstrates any benefits >> to ranking, I think we should be wary of using such systems. >> >> All best, >> >> John >> >> Sadlon, E., Sakamoto, Y., Dever, H. J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2008). >> The karma of Digg: Reciprocity in online social networks. In R. Gopal >> and R. Ramesh (Eds.), Proceedings of the 18th Annual Workshop on >> Information Technologies and Systems. >> http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/reciprocity.pdf >> >> Sakamoto, Y., Ma, J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2009). 2377 people like >> this article: The influence of others' decisions on yours. In N. >> Taatgen, H. van Rijn, L. Schomaker, and J. Nerbonne (Eds.), >> Proceedings of the 31st Annual Conference of the Cognitive Science >> Society.http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/cogscidigg1.pdf >> >> Salganik, M. J., Dodds, P. S., and Watts, D. J. (2006). Experimental >> study of inequality and unpredictability in an artificial cultural >> market. Science, 311(5762):854-856. >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1121066[/url] >> >> >> >> >> -------------------- m2f -------------------- >> >> (from forum) >> http://squeakland.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11554#11554 >> >> -------------------- m2f -------------------- >> _______________________________________________ >> squeakland mailing list >> squeakland(a)squeakland.org >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > > > Viewpoints Research is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to > improving "powerful ideas education" for the world's children and > advancing the state of systems research and personal computing. Please > visit us online at www.vpri.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Squeakland mailing list > Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >

2 1

etoys-dev meet today at 19:00 GMT on #etoys
by Timothy Falconer 09 Jun '10

09 Jun '10

Hi everyone, As before, we'll be having a software meet on the IRC freenode channel #etoys at 19:00 GMT (3pm ET, 12 PT). You can also attend by clicking "chat" on squeakland.org. It might be helpful to watch the two preview videos here: http://squeakland.org/resources/audioVisual/ Also, have a look at the current Etoys 4 roadmap: http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ?report=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.sy… Take care, Tim

2 1

popups in project-info
by Scott Wallace 31 May '10

31 May '10

Hi, Tim, and all, Attached is a fileout providing changes to the project-info dialog as requested for the benefit of the "showcase" on Squeakland.org. Basically, the "project info" dialog now contains three "enumerated" items, "Subject", "Age", and "Region". These three are all governed by pop-ups (in local language) rather than by type-ins. The results are included in the project manifest. Important notes: (1) It is essential that this be filed in to an image updated at least through update 2246PolygonFix-kfr. If filed in to an earlier image, subsequently loading updates will clobber some of the changes provided here. (2) Yoshiki is also modifying code in the EToyProjectDetailsMorph area in this same time-frame, so integration is likely to be necessary before our two fileouts are published. (3) There are a few obvious rough edges which someone may wish to tweak, though I don't know of any show-stoppers. For example, this has always been an English-only dialog, but now that the field names are localized, there may be layout issues in some languages (once translations are available.) Also, for the pop-up fields, if they've never been set they show as blank, whereas once they've been set to "(none)" (equivalent to blank) they show the text "(none)". Probably we should always show "(none)" when values for these three popups have not been supplied. Also, since some of the fields are now type-in and some are pop-ups, perhaps some UI convention (slight color difference?) should be used to hint at whether a field functions as a type-in or a pop-up. (4) This turned out to involve quite a bit of code, most of it written with a fever and at very late hours. So there's the distinct possibility of errors. I did test it briefly and it seemed to work as I expected. HOWEVER: it really needs verification by someone else. (5) The Preamble (please read if planning to test or use): -=------ Change Set: projectInfoPopUps-sw Date: 8 August 2009 Author: Scott Wallace Changes to the project-info dialog, in support of new data desired for the 'showcase' on squeakland.org: - 'Sub-Category' removed. - Subject, Age, and Region are added as pop-ups. - Choices for Subject, Age, Region popups, and corresponding codes, obtainable from web-site. - Project manifest now includes Age, Subject (category,) and Region info. The codes are strings of numbers, e.g. '554' as a Subject code means 'Language Arts' (look in #defaultAgeTriplets, #defaultSubjectTriplets, #defaultRegionTriplets on class-side of EToyProjectDetailsMorph.) - Names of fields are presented to the user in localized form. - Choices for values of pop-up fields are presented to the user in localized form. Notes: - There is support provided for obtaining up-to-date lists of the subject, age, and region alternatives from the web site (see EToyProjectDetailsMorph class updateTripletsFromWebSite) but it is not actually called at this point, out of concern for potential for long delay if connection to web site is slow. - The *region* codes are at present *not* obtained from the web-site (even when the user explicitly calls #updateTripletsFromWebSite,) but rather a 'fake' set of regions, basically the continents, is provided. This is probably temporary. We have no reasonable way to confront the user with a pop-up showing 250 choices. However, as per Tim's request, I have made it a point to include Antarctica in the region list. (Tim: look at method #defaultRegionTriplets for the current point of departure, if you want to adopt that, temporarily at least, on the web site. And/or of course change any defaults as needed. ----------- Cheers, -- Scott

11 34

Etoys developer chat today
by Bert Freudenberg 13 May '10

13 May '10

Please join our weekly Etoys developer chat today. Follow this link to see the time in your local time zone: http://tinyurl.com/3xfx4es To participate, enter your name as nickname on http://chat.squeakland.org/ and press "Login". Then say hi :-) Alternatively, use an IRC client of your choice to join #etoys on irc.freenode.net Everyone is welcome! - Bert -

5 6

Translation support
by Ricardo Moran 04 May '10

04 May '10

Hi guys, I'm starting to work on the translation support for GSoC and since I know nothing of how it is implemented and I'm already delayed in the timeline I wanted to ask you if you have any pointers on what/where should I look. Thanks in advance! Richo

6 23

Test for DrGeo
by Hilaire Fernandes 01 May '10

01 May '10

Request for test with Etoys Monticello enabled I have made a lot of change to the drgeo code base: a better user interface, simplification of the interface... It can be loaded from Monticello http://www.squeaksource.com/DrGeoII.html It is still work in progress, and package division is needed Once loaded in Etoys, to start a DrGeo instance: DrGeo service openInWorld Ringing bell... -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

3 6

Preparing for Monticello-based updates
by Bert Freudenberg 30 Apr '10

30 Apr '10

Hi folks, as we discussed lately we want to enable easier contributions, following a model similar to Squeak's "trunk". I spent the weekend making the latest tools from Squeak work in the Etoys image. I did not push it to the update stream yet, but it is attached. Let's discuss in the developer meeting on IRC later today. Here is how to test it: * Download Etoys-To-Go4-Final.zip from squeakland.org and unzip and run * get halo for world, choose "preferences..." from halo menu * disable "eToyFriendly" in the "scripting category" * click the gray World background, choose "previous project" from the World menu * you'll be taken to the hidden top-level project, light-blue background * now is a good time to save the image This will result in an image ready for development work. I'm suggesting to use Etoys-To-Go because it is self-contained and allows to save the image easily. The regular install is read-only. Now for my stuff ... * running Etoys-To-Go creates a folder called "Etoys" next to it. Unzip the attached files into that "Etoys" folder. * open a file list. You should see the files now (loadmc.st, compatFixes-bf.cs, MonadicIfNotNil-eem.cs, Pragmas-eem.cs, FakeUIManager-bf.cs) * select the contents of loadmc.st and "do it". If the files are in the default folder, it should work. * this will churn for a long while, but finally, it should have installed Monticello and MonticelloConfigurations and PackageInfo from trunk. Starting with this it should be really simple to get MC-based updates going, we just need to add some more utility methods from the trunk. Comments and help welcome :) - Bert -

8 20

Projects in new dev image broken
by Bert Freudenberg 30 Apr '10

30 Apr '10

... because making that image involved a recompilation of all methods in the system. But it appears Player subclasses do not like that. See below. Any idea how to fix that, and prevent it from happening again? - Bert - Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Bert Freudenberg (JIRA)" <tracker(a)squeakland.org> > Date: 30. April 2010 12:09:15 MESZ > To: bert(a)freudenbergs.de > Subject: [JIRA] Created: (SQ-699) Recompile breaks textual scripts > > Recompile breaks textual scripts > -------------------------------- > > Key: SQ-699 > URL: http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-699 > Project: squeakland > Issue Type: Bug > Components: etoys > Reporter: Bert Freudenberg > Priority: Blocker > Fix For: etoys 2010 > > > Run Etoys 4. From the world's viewer, execute the "setTextVersion" script. No error. > > Open a workspace, execute "Player withAllSubclassesDo: [:cls | cls compileAll]". > > Start the "setTextVersion" again. Boom. > > It appears that recompiling Player subclasses moves references to Undeclared, running the script again sees nil instead of the referenced players. What can we do about that?

2 2

Etoys developer chat log
by Bert Freudenberg 28 Apr '10

28 Apr '10

Hi all, we had another nice chat today. Topics included * what does @HELP achieve in the #etoys channel * how to fix up the ancestry of Monticello packages we create * and what to do about remaining packaging differences * how to get more reliable #etoys logs (perhaps same as #squeak?) * how to call next release? The update stream uses "etoys4.1" for now, the bug tracker "etoys 2010". "Etoys 5" would be an option too. Discussion welcome. * lack of documentation on extending Etoys, or even of its overall design * progress on User Manual * discussing Ricardo's GSoC project (Randy will set up a Google Group) * Maybe move all Squeakland mailing lists and forums to Google? would get rid of the forum spam issues Next chat will be next Monday, same time and place. But the channel is open 24/7, you can try to catch us any time (and use @ALL or @HELP to get our attention). Full log below. Once we have regular logging I won't have to spam the list with this anymore ... - Bert - <matmo> hi all <ritaf> hi <bertf> hi folks --> hilaire (~hilaire(a)bon74-1-88-184-136-97.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #etoys <Guest85605> hi <bertf> Randy: try a longer nick name, append soem characters <jecel> hello <hilaire> hello <bertf> "randy" is probably registered to another person <-> Guest85605 is now known as randycat <randycat> that worked <bertf> randycat: nice :) <bertf> cool, so let's start <bertf> did anyone try the updates? <randycat> The official notice of Richo's google award will be any minute - I hope nothing changed <bertf> yes, that's awesome. I hear there was quite some discussion at ESUG which projects to support, right? <randycat> it was tense <bertf> but he's doing great, good choice <kencausey> bertf: ah, good call <bertf> does anyone have anything specific we need to talk about? --> squeaker761 (~40379e74(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <bertf> kencausey: you mean the web irc thing or what? "maintain" <kencausey> yes, the web chat client <-> squeaker761 is now known as bander <bertf> ah, bander, hi <bander> hi <bertf> kencausey: well it;s working for now <bander> just listening today :-) <kencausey> true <kencausey> bander: good luck with that. ;) <bertf> kencausey: also, tim said he will continue to maintain the servers for now <kencausey> sure <kencausey> What does the @HELP prefix actually do? <bertf> it makes my icon bounce ;) <kencausey> For example, does the bot suggest alternate help sources? Unfortunately people that use it rarely get answered. <bertf> we all entered that as custom-highlight to our clients <bertf> nothing to do with the bot <kencausey> ah, I see, not bot related then <bertf> bander: I did have a question for you <bertf> I published a recategorization to the update stream <bander> sure <bertf> but comparing teh packages now to the trunk ones there are still a lot of differences <bertf> like, where did flash go? <bander> No clue. 3.9 road kill? <bander> We should restore it <bertf> do you think we should just make our own packages now? without ancestry? <bertf> I thought about "adopting" some existing packages <bander> How about adopting an older version? <bertf> :) <bertf> I thought about doing that with the earlies ones I can find <bertf> in the 39a repo <bander> The alternative is to move it into separate packages <bertf> flash you mean <bander> Yes <kencausey> seems like the better plan to me --> BackOrder (~4ad28298(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <bander> I can look at that if it helps <kencausey> it's time to transition to the core releases plus a basic built from the core with packages added <kencausey> then etoys can start with the core and go from there <bertf> yeah. well. I was so happy to have a reasonably categorized version today at 4 am that I published it <kencausey> sure <bertf> kencausey: yes that is the long-tem plan <bertf> bander: that would be excellent -*- saijanai_ unlurks and starts reading backlog <bander> I'll see if I can find some time this week <bertf> at least now we have some good tools to work with -*- kencausey resists talking about non-etoys issues <bertf> good boy ;) <bertf> BackOrder: hi - do we know you? <bander> IanT perhaps? <bertf> no idea, that nick doesn't ring a bell <bertf> in any case I want this to be done asap so we can start integrating the actual patches lingering on the tracker <bander> Actually, I think we should keep the current version of the Flash package in the Etoys repo for the time being <bertf> oh definitely <bertf> I want all packages to at least have a copy in the etoys repo <bander> Sounds reasonable <bertf> so the etoys release will only contain packages from there <bertf> which might have a master elsewhere but still <ritaf> bertf: in Portugal, they are using an old Etoys version, 3.9 but they want move to Etoys 4.0. They say they did some work on the older version and the biggest problem is to do it all again for the new Etoys. What would you recommend for them to so? And especially, is the new update stream helping there? <randycat> will any of the changes you are planning effect what Ricardo Moran creates for GSoC? <bertf> ritaf: depends on what work they did <ritaf> bertf: I don't know the details, I will ask. <ritaf> bertf: maybe I shold just invite Luis for the next meeting <bander> ritaf: the best thing to do would be to get them involved in the dev process <bertf> randycat: shouldn't. we're not planning to do any big changes for this summer's release <bertf> randycat: what we're talking about is just a different way to organize the code, not actually modifying teh code itself <bertf> not in a big way anyhow <bander> sorry folks, gotta run - eliot's dragging me out for lunch --> karlram (~51aa9a7e(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys <karlram> hello <bertf> bander: thanks for stopping by <ritaf> hi karlram <bertf> karlram: hi. awesome :) <karlram> hi <bertf> you just missed andreas, we were talking about the new packages <karlram> ah <bertf> kencausey: do you have an idea for better loggin this channel? <BackOrder> Hi guys! Yes, I am Ian Trudel. :) <karlram> will there be logs ? <karlram> hi <bertf> karlram: sure <karlram> cool <kencausey> bertf: well, we might be able to invite clog as long as you want total logging and not something directly controllable. <bertf> karlram: I just emailed you the backlog <karlram> thanks <kencausey> that woudl put logs at tunes.org/~nef/logs/ <bertf> kencausey: that would be awesome. just like for #squeak right? <kencausey> BackOrder: Hi Ian <kencausey> bertf: yes, trick is remembering who to contact <BackOrder> I decided to take a peek in this chatroom after Bert's invitation on Squeak-Dev. <kencausey> Brian Rice might know, shall I look into it? <bertf> kencausey: please, yes. thanks <bertf> I removed the broken "sm" log link from the topic today <bertf> ok, logs, there was somethign else I wanted to ask ... <bertf> ah, yes. karlram: I notiuced you added changesets to the tracker but did not mark teh issues "resolved" <bertf> are you happy with the way the tracker works now? <bertf> or with the way we're using it? <karlram> the process is a little unclear <bertf> well we're abusing the system <bertf> let me dig out the link <karlram> i'm not sure what the diffrent thing stand for <bertf> http://wiki.squeakland.org/display/sq/Process <bertf> well it's unfortunate that they do not mean what they usually mean <karlram> ok, i'll read that <-- BackOrder (~4ad28298(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) <bertf> that's how we tried to operate, though it wasn't working too well I think <karlram> but etoys 5 is our next release ? <karlram> next target <bertf> to me it feels more liek a minor release --> BackOrder (~ian(a)130-152.sh.cgocable.ca) has joined #etoys <matmo> got to go soon. Copy of my notes re AV on Ubuntu Karmic (will be on swiki alter in the week): http://pastebin.com/J5E1jgK1 <bertf> matmo: thanks ! <karlram> it minor in some ways <karlram> major if we get it up to squeak 4.1 <bertf> no chance <karlram> :-) <bertf> there are way too many issues to make that leap that soon :) <karlram> ok <saijanai_> question: is anyone working on how to make it easier to extend etoys? I'm just trying to nibble around the edges and it looks somewhat daunting <bertf> so the development version we're working on now I'd like to call 4.1. <jecel> And I would say there is work to be done on the Squeak side as well, so it would be better to aim for Squeak 4.2 or something like that <bertf> saijanai_: no one really. help welcome :) <saijanai_> well, I'd like to, but I'm slow at digesting, so no promises <karlram> name the issues you have with extending ? <bertf> sure. but let us know where you feel you're hitting a wall <saijanai_> getting started is the first issue. NOt sure where to start <bertf> almost everythignis possible, but seldomly obvious and sometimes not trivial <karlram> there should be some example project around.... <bertf> saijanai_: you wanted to add your own tiles IIRC right? <saijanai_> right. I think you were the one who sent me info on the GSoC project? or was that someone else? <bertf> not sure <saijanai_> if youre not the one doing the work ont eh GSoC then it was someone else :-) <bertf> the work is dan by Ricardo <bertf> s/dan/done/ <saijanai_> ah, OK, so Ricardo is the one who sent me the info <randycat> Ricardo is posting his progress on SqueakSource <bertf> there is a lot of oral history around squeak ... <bertf> some things seem to never have been written up <kencausey> many things <saijanai_> and by the time someone tries, they've changed beyond recognition, or such is my impression <bertf> which is both good and bad - good because the system is evolving, bad because it's harder to catch up <matmo> how's the etoys book coming along? <bertf> the ref manual? <matmo> y <bertf> ritaf would know <bertf> last time I checked it looked pretty good <karlram> bertf:true <bertf> but it is a user's manual, not a developer's one <ritaf> we have most of the text done, now one issue is formatting, so that it is better to read and then reviewing. <bertf> kencausey: do you know which paper outlined the general principles of Etoys? <bertf> like, the fat object model etc <saijanai_> yeah, I've got many plans concerning etoys. The Scratch in Second Life could be extended in many ways (direct manipulation of prims via packet injection instead of LSL scripts, for example) <bertf> saijanai_: basically, in etoys you only have a a single kind of object. no classes/inheritance etc. <bertf> that object is called "Player" <saijanai_> right. Based off of the Self design, with much kludging to make it work in Squeak <bertf> everything you want to be scriptable, you must add to Player <saijanai_> OK, sorta got that from what Ricardo told me <bertf> no, Morphic comes from Self, but Etoys is yet another layer <jecel> There is an indirection compared to Self - a Player may have several Costumes <saijanai_> ah, OK. my bad <bertf> right, what jecel said <bertf> so when you make an Etoys script it looks liek you are working with a morph, but in fact you are working with a Player <randycat> bertf: I want to start a place where teachers and developers can download and discuss Ricardo's tools. What do you think about Google Groups? <kencausey> bertf: no, jecel? -*- kencausey checks new blue book <kencausey> hmm, too old perhapos <bertf> randycat: hmm. good question <saijanai_> I'm willing to participate in such a discussion groiup. <jecel> kencausey: I have never read a paper about the Etoys architecture, but did see one about Tweak which has some features in common <karlram> I posted a simple changeset that adds camera tracking to Etoys on Etoys-dev <bertf> randycat: you think the squeakland list would be inappropriate? <kencausey> jecel: yeah, I'm not sure what paper bertf is refering too <bertf> kencausey: maybe the one in my head ;) <karlram> must be some paper from Alan <jecel> is the squeakland list still linked to some web forums? <bertf> we'd have to ask Scott <karlram> he has some stuff on the vpri.org <bertf> jecel: yes, though they are just spam repositories <randycat> I though Google Groups might be more approachable by teachers and easier to archive. <jecel> bertf: I was afraid of that <bertf> randycat: then we have a problem with the squeakland list, which is supposed to be approachable by teachers <kencausey> randycat: I like running our own tools whenever possible, but google groups seems reasonable for this case. <saijanai_> http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rcaton/ESUG/ESUG.html is the link Ricardo sent me <karlram> saianai> ask question on etoys-dev mail list when you run into issus <karlram> issues <saijanai_> that's how I got the link :-) <bertf> randycat: how about moving the whole squeakland list to google groups? (just speculating, not actually proposing it yet) <bertf> ritaf: any comment? ^^^ <randycat> saijanai: I set u that link, but it is just a web page <saijanai_> Ricardo? <saijanai_> thanks <bertf> saijanai_: Ricardo is doing the work, and Randy is mentoring him <ritaf> bertf: let me think about that. I don't know yet what that would mean. <saijanai_> ah, OK. Misread who sent what to whom then <saijanai_> thanks anyways :-) <bertf> ritaf: well for one it would mean we don't have to maintain the lists on our own <randycat> bertf: can the squeakland list do all that Google Groups can in one environment? <bertf> also, google is good about filtering spam <bertf> randycat: I have no idea, I'm not too familiar with google groups <saijanai_> google can require membership so you can just ban spammers <saijanai_> I think <kencausey> bertf: picking your battles seems like a good idea to me, running your own listserv is a bit of time sink <karlram> bertf is there much spam on squeakland lists ? <jecel> The Cobalt people use google groups and there is a new Smalltalk Research list there <bertf> karlram: no, but on the forums there is <karlram> ok, i never use the frums <karlram> forums.... <bertf> does google groups have a forums-like view? --> scottwal (~scottwal(a)99-40-5-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #etoys <bertf> oh, hi scottwal :) <karlram> hi <scottwal> hi! [only here for a couple of moments -- have to head back out :-( ] <bertf> we were wondering if there was a paper about the general architecture of Etoys? <scottwal> Almost surely not... <jecel> Yes, you can use google groups as a web forum (I do for over half of the list there in which I participate) <bertf> or any documentation really <randycat> bertf: Google groups has custom web pages, discussion threads, upload and download files - all in one package <bertf> jecel: that sounds like a win <kencausey> bertf: google groups can be used entirely through the web, so I think it supplants the idea of a web forum <bertf> right. I'd love to have something I can use either as mailign list or as forum <karlram> I have to read books to my daugther... Bye <ritaf> that sounds nice to me. <bertf> karlram: thanks <scottwal> and I have to pick up my daughter from the airport... Bye <-- karlram (~51aa9a7e(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)) <jecel> I participate in an equal number of lists at yahoo groups and it is pretty reasonable too <bertf> thanks to you too scott3 <ritaf> bye scott! <-- scottwal (~scottwal(a)99-40-5-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has quit (Client Quit) <bertf> jecel do you see any advantage to yahoo? <bertf> (I've never seen it I guess) <kencausey> Google seems like a better choice from a stability standpoint, at least this year <randycat> bertf: ESUG uses Google Groups <bertf> randycat: seems like a win to me <jecel> bertf: I started the self-interest list on eGroups and that got bought by Yahoo. I think the two alternatives are roughly equivalent <bertf> okay. Who volunteers to set this up? <randycat> bertf: I will <bertf> randycat: for the gsoc you mean <randycat> yes <matmo> bye all <bertf> okay. I meant moving over the squeakland list and archives etc. <randycat> bertf: we could try it for gsoc and see how we like it <bertf> (assuming archives can be imported) <bertf> randycat: good idea <jecel> One great thing about the yahoo groups (google might have this too, but I am not an administrator for any list there) is that you can moderate just the first email from each new user, and once you see they are not spammers you let them post without moderation <bertf> jecel: that's a feature we wanted to have for a long time <jecel> Yeah, that reduces my workload to one email to look at every two weeks <bertf> ritaf: can you ask marta how she would feel about moving the america-latina list? <bertf> these are the lists we currently have http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo <ritaf> bertf: ok <bertf> well, excellent. thanks guys - anything else we would want to discuss today? <saijanai_> Just checked with John Dougan. Google has the same feature regarding moderation <randycat> jecel: I just checked - there are management tools for postings <bertf> saijanai_: thanks <bertf> matmo: thanks! <jecel> randycat: great! <randycat> bertf: should I set up a Goggle Group for GSoC - once Ricardo's award is official? <bertf> randycat: yes please. sounds like a good experiment <bertf> I need someone to lead this discussion next week - I'll be in the air. <randycat> OK - goodbye everyone and thanks <bertf> thanks randycat. bye <-- randycat (~cebcff48(a)skylab.immuexa.com) has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC) <bertf> or just come here next Monday, same place and time, and have a nice chat :) <bertf> thanks everyone! <saijanai_> cheers <BackOrder> So long, folks. :)

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Fwd: [Sugar-devel] SOAS-3: Final Activity List - Attention needed!
by Bert Freudenberg 28 Apr '10

28 Apr '10

So Etoys is one of the few activities pre-installed in the next Sugar-on-the-Stick. Would be awesome if someone could test to see it works as expected. - Bert - Begin forwarded message: > > From: Peter Robinson <pbrobinson(a)gmail.com> > Date: 26. April 2010 21:16:41 MESZ > To: Sugar on a Stick List <soas(a)lists.sugarlabs.org>, Sugar devel <sugar-devel(a)lists.sugarlabs.org> > Subject: [Sugar-devel] SOAS-3: Final Activity List - Attention needed! > > Hi All, > > So as it stands the final Activity list that we're pushing for SOAS-3 > will be as below unless someone gives me reasonable doubt as to the > release team's (Sebastian and myself) decision. > > So the final list is: > - browse > - physics > - turtleart > - irc > - log > - terminal > - Record > - Read > - Write > - Chat. > - etoys > > In literally the last 10 minutes Sebastian and I have fixed the Write > issue and over the last 2 weeks with the latest Record release and a > number of fixes and testing I've got Record to what seems to be a > stable and working release. The last of the changes should be in the > daily build from tomorrow (including a fix from sdz for the lack of a > boot screen). > > One thing to note is that other than sdz and I there has only been one > other person test and report back on the builds (Thanks Thomas!) so if > you haven't done so until now we are now on the home straight so > please test. I don't want to here the day after release "Blah is > broken" because someone hasn't taken 10 minutes to test the release, I > will be less than impressed! > > For those who forget where they can get the daily build you can from this link. > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/soas/ > > Regards, > The SoaS release team! > _______________________________________________ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel(a)lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

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etoys-dev April 2010