From hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Sun Oct 25 09:07:14 2009 From: Hilaire Fernandes To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:07:20 +0100 Message-ID: <7ac6e0530910250207j1cc9850ahf9af10f0dc4e4c53@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0371044222877270575==" --===============0371044222877270575== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess we want to also make clear how to fetch the source code of Etoys, so community may be easily capable to produce relevant packaging for Linux distro. I think it is important to clearly indicated where are the source codes. Here is a small suggestion to add in the Download page: ==

Etoys source code

Etoys is composed of two elements: a virtual machine binary specific to each architecture and Smalltalk source code independent of the host architecture. The source code is naturally spanned in these two elements:

-- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire --===============0371044222877270575==-- From bert@freudenbergs.de Mon Oct 26 23:55:46 2009 From: Bert Freudenberg To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:59:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3FDB7386-CBA3-498C-85E7-98D1E3AB231F@freudenbergs.de> In-Reply-To: <7ac6e0530910250207j1cc9850ahf9af10f0dc4e4c53@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1735045325231280127==" --===============1735045325231280127== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 25.10.2009, at 10:07, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > I guess we want to also make clear how to fetch the source code of > Etoys, so community may be easily capable to produce relevant > packaging for Linux distro. I think it is important to clearly > indicated where are the source codes. > > Here is a small suggestion to add in the Download page: > > == >

Etoys source code

> >

Etoys is composed of two elements: a virtual machine binary > specific to each architecture and Smalltalk source code independent of > the host architecture. The source code is naturally spanned in these > two elements:

> Yes, we definitely need something like this. I'd explicitly state that all Etoys source code is included with Etoys. It does not need to be downloaded separately. What's missing is just the Squeak Virtual Machine source code used to run the Etoys image, and that can be found at squeakvm.org. It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing. - Bert - --===============1735045325231280127==-- From hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Tue Oct 27 07:51:11 2009 From: Hilaire Fernandes To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:51:20 +0100 Message-ID: <7ac6e0530910270051i47c61366ic29fc9926db791b4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3FDB7386-CBA3-498C-85E7-98D1E3AB231F@freudenbergs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1757230556450488672==" --===============1757230556450488672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg : > It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" > because this does not affect the system except for breaking source browsing. No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view. Hilaire -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire --===============1757230556450488672==-- From bert@freudenbergs.de Tue Oct 27 15:14:48 2009 From: Bert Freudenberg To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:13:03 -0400 Message-ID: <23ADED4D-0BF6-497F-81C0-801831E2280D@freudenbergs.de> In-Reply-To: <7ac6e0530910270051i47c61366ic29fc9926db791b4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8941632184098164169==" --===============8941632184098164169== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > 2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg : > >> It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" >> because this does not affect the system except for breaking source >> browsing. > > No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view. There is a huge difference between editing and viewing. To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software freedom #1: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change Etoys' behavior. - Bert - --===============8941632184098164169==-- From hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Tue Oct 27 17:28:02 2009 From: Hilaire Fernandes To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:28:03 +0100 Message-ID: <7ac6e0530910271028t3f5e494fka2f05f0671827fad@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <23ADED4D-0BF6-497F-81C0-801831E2280D@freudenbergs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7906310984286758828==" --===============7906310984286758828== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree, but many free software activists want to be able to view the source code with a simple code text editor. This is what developer without knowledge about Smalltalk ask me. Any way this is just an option to view the source code and I don't see how it can hurt. Hilaire 2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg : > > On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > >> 2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg : >> >>> It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" >>> because this does not affect the system except for breaking source >>> browsing. >> >> No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view. > > There is a huge difference between editing and viewing. > > To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a > program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software > freedom #1: > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change > Etoys' behavior. > > - Bert - > > _______________________________________________ > etoys-dev mailing list > etoys-dev(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire --===============7906310984286758828==-- From bert@freudenbergs.de Tue Oct 27 18:21:26 2009 From: Bert Freudenberg To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:19:41 -0400 Message-ID: <75BA6CA9-BC2C-4A10-9B69-ADA08AC9A379@freudenbergs.de> In-Reply-To: <7ac6e0530910271028t3f5e494fka2f05f0671827fad@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3472141231204190640==" --===============3472141231204190640== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 27.10.2009, at 13:28, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > I agree, but many free software activists want to be able to view the > source code with a simple code text editor. This is what developer > without knowledge about Smalltalk ask me. Any way this is just an > option to view the source code and I don't see how it can hurt. > > Hilaire Here is how it would hurt: By suggesting you can edit sources and changes with any text editor you are making false promises. In this regard Smalltalk is simply different from about any other programming system. People unfamiliar with Smalltalk would assume that editing these files would allow them to change Etoys, because that's how development usually works. But not in Squeak. On the contrary, even if you did not have these files, you could still view and change Etoys source code perfectly fine. The only thing you would miss is comments and names of temporary variables. This illustrates that the primary artifact is the image, not the text chunks stored in the sources and changes files. I don't see why you would want to put a misleading statement like "These files can be edited from any text editor" on the download page. Yes, you could also edit an MP3 audio file in any text editor, which is literally true, but deceiving. I understand that you want to appeal to the "free software activists" who don't know how Smalltalk development works. But there is no need to misrepresent the truth. Etoys is Free software even to the letter of the FSF's definition. We do not need to resort to propaganda. - Bert - > 2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg : >> >> On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: >> >>> 2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg : >>> >>>> It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text >>>> editor" >>>> because this does not affect the system except for breaking source >>>> browsing. >>> >>> No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of >>> view. >> >> There is a huge difference between editing and viewing. >> >> To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to >> study a >> program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software >> freedom #1: >> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html >> >> Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not >> change >> Etoys' behavior. >> >> - Bert - --===============3472141231204190640==-- From hilaire.fernandes@edu.ge.ch Tue Oct 27 19:47:07 2009 From: Hilaire Fernandes To: etoys-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [etoys-dev] Suggestion to add in the download page Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:47:09 +0100 Message-ID: <7ac6e0530910271247pe24817bt114c5e98f66f462c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <75BA6CA9-BC2C-4A10-9B69-ADA08AC9A379@freudenbergs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6355638216801654645==" --===============6355638216801654645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So in my sentence, change 'edited from a text editor' by 'viewed from a text editor', I agree 'edited' induce false hope of being able to modify the code from a text editor, which effectively is not operable for .sources and the .changes. Anyway some people make a strong point at been able to view from a simple text editor. I know all the arguments you wrote, that's not the point. I am taking the point of view of people without knowledge with Smalltalk and I am trying to provide them an easier curve to understand how is arranged the source code architecture in Smalltalk. Hilaire 2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg : > On 27.10.2009, at 13:28, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > >> I agree, but many free software activists want to be able to view the >> source code with a simple code text editor. This is what developer >> without knowledge about Smalltalk ask me. Any way this is just an >> option to view the source code and I don't see how it can hurt. >> >> Hilaire > > Here is how it would hurt: > > By suggesting you can edit sources and changes with any text editor you are > making false promises. In this regard Smalltalk is simply different from > about any other programming system. People unfamiliar with Smalltalk would > assume that editing these files would allow them to change Etoys, because > that's how development usually works. But not in Squeak. > > On the contrary, even if you did not have these files, you could still view > and change Etoys source code perfectly fine. The only thing you would miss > is comments and names of temporary variables. This illustrates that the > primary artifact is the image, not the text chunks stored in the sources and > changes files. > > I don't see why you would want to put a misleading statement like "These > files can be edited from any text editor" on the download page. Yes, you > could also edit an MP3 audio file in any text editor, which is literally > true, but deceiving. > > I understand that you want to appeal to the "free software activists" who > don't know how Smalltalk development works. But there is no need to > misrepresent the truth. Etoys is Free software even to the letter of the > FSF's definition. We do not need to resort to propaganda. > > - Bert - > > >> 2009/10/27 Bert Freudenberg : >>> >>> On 27.10.2009, at 03:51, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: >>> >>>> 2009/10/26 Bert Freudenberg : >>>> >>>>> It is wrong to write "These files can be edited from any text editor" >>>>> because this does not affect the system except for breaking source >>>>> browsing. >>>> >>>> No, it is not wrong from the access to source code dude point of view. >>> >>> There is a huge difference between editing and viewing. >>> >>> To be considered Free Software you need to be able not only to study a >>> program, but to be able to change its behavior. That's GNU's software >>> freedom #1: >>> >>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html >>> >>> Editing the sources or changes file in any text editor does not change >>> Etoys' behavior. >>> >>> - Bert - > > > _______________________________________________ > etoys-dev mailing list > etoys-dev(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev > -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire --===============6355638216801654645==--