squeakland September 2009

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20 participants
48 discussions

Re: [squeakland] Re: the reasons for ranking
by JOHN VOIKLIS 30 Sep '09

30 Sep '09

Hi Kim, I _am_ well and still very much interested, even if my work has led in a very different direction. I fully understand the community's need for some kind of assessment system. I seem to remember that something of the sort was a topic of conversation at the very first Squeakfest. I am glad to see that Tim has modeled the ranking/trust system like some kind of peer review. Nevertheless, I am still wary of whether it will work or work well; peer review is problematic even in the sciences. Some kind of "expert" assessment or assessment tool (a rubric or checklist that asks does it work, does it provide instructions, etc?) might be better suited to your needs. Projects could then be listed in order of how many or which rubric items have been checked. I don't know who if anyone among the so-called experts has the time to devote to assessments, but I also don't know who if anyone among the student contributors will devote that time to peer review. While a chunk of my life has been devoted to solving problems with technologies, I have grown both wary and weary of technological solutions. I hope this solution will be thoroughly tested and not just to see if it functions but to see if it actually solves a human problem without introducing new problems. Best of luck, John On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Kim Rose <kim.rose(a)vpri.org> wrote: > Hey, John, > > Nice to see you are still around and interested -- hope you are doing well. > Thanks for the comments. > > As for me and Viewpoints -- there is one reason only for ranking and that is > filtering in an attempt to bring the best educational examples and those > illustrative of etoys' strengths to the attention of the community. So, I, > for one, am hoping that those "voting" are not voting for any particular > child, author or person, but for the example itself -- I hope those > voting/ranking are asking "is this a fine exemplar to help teach a concept, > principle, or powerful idea?". The more the example answers back with a > "yes" the higher the rank. Also, the more complete an example the higher > the rank. How disclosing of what the Etoy is meant to do is in the example? > Does it have an explanation of what it is? If it is a game does it have > instruction on how to play and the goal of the game? > > I hope that teachers who encourage their students to upload projects will > *only* allow sharing if their student provides an "About" flap, or some > intro/explanation of the Etoy and some instruction on where to start, the > aim of the project, etc. The most beautiful simulation of something will > fall completely flat with someone if they have no real idea of what they are > looking at or what the script they are playing with is meant to do. Etoys > are intended to teach and help us learn; learning cannot occur without > context. No author should assume their project will be self disclosing; it > will not. Our users have a variety of levels of expertise in both Etoys and > subject matter areas; providing more context can only help. > > If there is no "ranking" in place and everything is posted the offerings > soon get overwhelming and most difficult to navigate. We found this years > ago when we had an active "super-swiki". Projects that were no more than a > single sketch with no script at all were posted and only "muddied the > waters" for those wading in an attempt to find something with some > meaningful content. > > I hope the community will bear this in mind when "ranking" what gets > uploaded and understand that not everyone can be represented in a featured > showcase. > -- Kim > > > On Sep 30, 2009, at 7:58 AM, voiklis wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I apologize for joining this conversation so late; I am a longtime, though >> recently quiet, member of the community. >> >> I understand that the ranking system is an attempt to enable people to >> judge the quality of a contribution (or contributor) based on some directly >> observable measure of reputation. On first sight, one could argue that such >> a system overcomes the problem that in the face-to-face world reputation is >> not directly observable. In order to get an honest assessment of a person's >> reputation, one has to invest a lot of time building trust with the people >> familiar with that person. Even then, a trustworthy assessment requires >> direct observation of the person's actions. >> >> A ranking system would appear to reduce that effort by half; knowing the >> person's reputation among his/her peers, one only needs to assess the work. >> >> The problem with that reasoning is that electronic ranking systems are >> highly susceptible to manipulation. Building reputation becomes the goal of >> the activity for many people and they use all sorts of seemingly harmless >> social and technological means to inflate their numbers. Our lab has been >> studying this phenomenon through both observational studies of online >> communities and laboratory experiments. The two papers below report on the >> phenomenon as it presents itself in Digg, the news aggregation site. >> >> The first paper demonstrates that a tit-for-tat game of reciprocity >> inflates the reputation of contributors and their contributions without >> reflecting anything substantive about their contributions. The second paper >> really brings out the negative consequences of this phenomenon. The paper >> reports on an experiment where people judged how interesting they found the >> contribution. The ranking values of the articles were set by the >> investigator; sometime the rank of the article was set high, at other times >> low. Experimental subjects rated higher-ranked contributions as more >> interesting than lower ranked contributions. The same article was rated as >> highly interesting when its rank was set high and uninteresting when ranked >> low. Duncan Watts (of small-world networks fame) observed the same >> phenomenon with music rating. >> >> What this means in the present discussion is that people will likely >> ignore low ranking contributions. Worse still, when they do actually look at >> those contributions they are likely to see what the ranking value led them >> to expect rather than the qualities of the contribution itself. >> >> Unless we can find scientific research that demonstrates any benefits to >> ranking, I think we should be wary of using such systems. >> >> All best, >> >> John >> >> Sadlon, E., Sakamoto, Y., Dever, H. J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2008). The >> karma of Digg: Reciprocity in online social networks. In R. Gopal and R. >> Ramesh (Eds.), Proceedings of the 18th Annual Workshop on Information >> Technologies and Systems. >> http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/reciprocity.pdf >> >> Sakamoto, Y., Ma, J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2009). 2377 people like this >> article: The influence of others' decisions on yours. In N. Taatgen, H. van >> Rijn, L. Schomaker, and J. Nerbonne (Eds.), Proceedings of the 31st Annual >> Conference of the Cognitive Science >> Society.http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/cogscidigg1.pdf >> >> Salganik, M. J., Dodds, P. S., and Watts, D. J. (2006). Experimental study >> of inequality and unpredictability in an artificial cultural market. >> Science, 311(5762):854-856. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1121066[/url] >> >> >> >> >> -------------------- m2f -------------------- >> >> (from forum) >> http://squeakland.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11554#11554 >> >> -------------------- m2f -------------------- >> _______________________________________________ >> squeakland mailing list >> squeakland(a)squeakland.org >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > > > Viewpoints Research is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to > improving "powerful ideas education" for the world's children and advancing > the state of systems research and personal computing. Please visit us online > at www.vpri.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Squeakland mailing list > Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >

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the reasons for ranking
by Timothy Falconer 30 Sep '09

30 Sep '09

Hi all, Let's talk more directly about the reasons for ranking . . . early today I wrote: >> It also gives us more colored dots. And Yoshiki wrote: > And the explanation of why this is a good thing is not described > yet. Kathleen wasn't happy with it and I think your response wasn't > answering her concern. I'll try to be clearer. As I see things, there are three related issues that are getting combined in the same conversation: 1. showing individual rankings (which is what I think she's most concerned about ... google "Punished by Rewards") 2. showing levels of ongoing community involvement (aka, "top ten contributors") 3. sorting things so the good stuff stays on top and the lesser stuff falls to the bottom The colored dots next to people's usernames are really about #2. You can get points by voting, by commenting, by submitting projects, etc. It is *not* merely a measure of your project vote points. It's not an average either. One person who submits ten projects that gets 5 points each will earn 50 points, which is the same as another person who submits two projects that get 25 points each. There's no way to tell which person got 25 points apiece and which got 5 points apiece. In a normal grading situation, the 25 pointer would clearly "win out" over the 5 pointer. The Squeakland showcase measures *sustained effort*, not specific performance. Displaying the colored dots is a motivational thing. When someone sees a comment by "yoshiki with the purple circle", they can see you're an Etoys enthusiast with a history. It's not "Yoshiki who get's straight A's", it's "Yoshiki who's put in a lot of effort over time and has earned that purple circle." Seeing the purple circle is a reward to you for effort, and a signal to others that your opinion might matter more than "puppetAccount31252" with a white circle. The colored circles are a measure of credibility. Which leads to the most important reason for them .... people with higher levels get asked to rank other projects. They get asked because they've earned the right to have a say in what's valuable. Some important things to keep in mind: * no one ever sees your votes * no one ever knows how their project was ranked, only that it places higher or lower than another project * there are no displays of "raw points" anywhere ... only relative levels. Today the top points is 362. In a year, it might be 23,252. No one ever sees this. As for the more general question of why do we even want to rank projects (#3), the answer is quite plain .... because when there's 250,000 projects on the server, it'll be a big mess that's useful to no one unless there's some ordering that's generally useful. The Squeakland ranking system is an attempt to sort with a measure of actual worth, not mere popularity. The way to gauge this worth should be tied directly to sustained merit. Tim

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Re: [squeakland] Re: the reasons for ranking
by Rita Freudenberg 30 Sep '09

30 Sep '09

Am 30.09.2009 um 17:20 schrieb Kim Rose: > Hey, John, > > Nice to see you are still around and interested -- hope you are > doing well. Thanks for the comments. > > As for me and Viewpoints -- there is one reason only for ranking and > that is filtering in an attempt to bring the best educational > examples and those illustrative of etoys' strengths to the attention > of the community. That is exactly what the featured showcase is for. However, we also want to encourage everyone to share their work, even if it's not perfect. We need a place for that, too. > So, I, for one, am hoping that those "voting" are not voting for > any particular child, author or person, but for the example itself > -- I hope those voting/ranking are asking "is this a fine exemplar > to help teach a concept, principle, or powerful idea?". The more > the example answers back with a "yes" the higher the rank. Also, > the more complete an example the higher the rank. How disclosing of > what the Etoy is meant to do is in the example? Does it have an > explanation of what it is? If it is a game does it have instruction > on how to play and the goal of the game? > > I hope that teachers who encourage their students to upload projects > will *only* allow sharing if their student provides an "About" > flap, or some intro/explanation of the Etoy and some instruction on > where to start, the aim of the project, etc. The most beautiful > simulation of something will fall completely flat with someone if > they have no real idea of what they are looking at or what the > script they are playing with is meant to do. Etoys are intended to > teach and help us learn; learning cannot occur without context. No > author should assume their project will be self disclosing; it will > not. Our users have a variety of levels of expertise in both Etoys > and subject matter areas; providing more context can only help. All this is absolutely true. But we have to decide if we only want to have these special projects on our website or if we provide a place where children can share their work, even if the projects are not perfect. In my opinion we should have both, but not at the same page. > > If there is no "ranking" in place and everything is posted the > offerings soon get overwhelming and most difficult to navigate. We > found this years ago when we had an active "super-swiki". Projects > that were no more than a single sketch with no script at all were > posted and only "muddied the waters" for those wading in an attempt > to find something with some meaningful content. Thats true. To find meaningful content of good quality one should look at the featured showcase where you can only find the ranked projects. Rita > > I hope the community will bear this in mind when "ranking" what gets > uploaded and understand that not everyone can be represented in a > featured showcase. > -- Kim > > > On Sep 30, 2009, at 7:58 AM, voiklis wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I apologize for joining this conversation so late; I am a longtime, >> though recently quiet, member of the community. >> >> I understand that the ranking system is an attempt to enable people >> to judge the quality of a contribution (or contributor) based on >> some directly observable measure of reputation. On first sight, one >> could argue that such a system overcomes the problem that in the >> face-to-face world reputation is not directly observable. In order >> to get an honest assessment of a person's reputation, one has to >> invest a lot of time building trust with the people familiar with >> that person. Even then, a trustworthy assessment requires direct >> observation of the person's actions. >> >> A ranking system would appear to reduce that effort by half; >> knowing the person's reputation among his/her peers, one only needs >> to assess the work. >> >> The problem with that reasoning is that electronic ranking systems >> are highly susceptible to manipulation. Building reputation becomes >> the goal of the activity for many people and they use all sorts of >> seemingly harmless social and technological means to inflate their >> numbers. Our lab has been studying this phenomenon through both >> observational studies of online communities and laboratory >> experiments. The two papers below report on the phenomenon as it >> presents itself in Digg, the news aggregation site. >> >> The first paper demonstrates that a tit-for-tat game of reciprocity >> inflates the reputation of contributors and their contributions >> without reflecting anything substantive about their contributions. >> The second paper really brings out the negative consequences of >> this phenomenon. The paper reports on an experiment where people >> judged how interesting they found the contribution. The ranking >> values of the articles were set by the investigator; sometime the >> rank of the article was set high, at other times low. Experimental >> subjects rated higher-ranked contributions as more interesting than >> lower ranked contributions. The same article was rated as highly >> interesting when its rank was set high and uninteresting when >> ranked low. Duncan Watts (of small-world networks fame) observed >> the same phenomenon with music rating. >> >> What this means in the present discussion is that people will >> likely ignore low ranking contributions. Worse still, when they do >> actually look at those contributions they are likely to see what >> the ranking value led them to expect rather than the qualities of >> the contribution itself. >> >> Unless we can find scientific research that demonstrates any >> benefits to ranking, I think we should be wary of using such systems. >> >> All best, >> >> John >> >> Sadlon, E., Sakamoto, Y., Dever, H. J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2008). >> The karma of Digg: Reciprocity in online social networks. In R. >> Gopal and R. Ramesh (Eds.), Proceedings of the 18th Annual Workshop >> on Information Technologies and Systems. http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/reciprocity.pdf >> >> Sakamoto, Y., Ma, J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2009). 2377 people like >> this article: The influence of others' decisions on yours. In N. >> Taatgen, H. van Rijn, L. Schomaker, and J. Nerbonne (Eds.), >> Proceedings of the 31st Annual Conference of the Cognitive Science >> Society.http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/cogscidigg1.pdf >> >> Salganik, M. J., Dodds, P. S., and Watts, D. J. (2006). >> Experimental study of inequality and unpredictability in an >> artificial cultural market. Science, 311(5762):854-856. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1121066 >> [/url] >> >> >> >> >> -------------------- m2f -------------------- >> >> (from forum) >> http://squeakland.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11554#11554 >> >> -------------------- m2f -------------------- >> _______________________________________________ >> squeakland mailing list >> squeakland(a)squeakland.org >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > > > Viewpoints Research is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated > to improving "powerful ideas education" for the world's children and > advancing the state of systems research and personal computing. > Please visit us online at www.vpri.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Squeakland mailing list > Squeakland(a)squeakland.org > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland Rita Freudenberg rita(a)isg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de

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Re: the reasons for ranking
by voiklis 30 Sep '09

30 Sep '09

Hello all, I apologize for joining this conversation so late; I am a longtime, though recently quiet, member of the community. I understand that the ranking system is an attempt to enable people to judge the quality of a contribution (or contributor) based on some directly observable measure of reputation. On first sight, one could argue that such a system overcomes the problem that in the face-to-face world reputation is not directly observable. In order to get an honest assessment of a person's reputation, one has to invest a lot of time building trust with the people familiar with that person. Even then, a trustworthy assessment requires direct observation of the person's actions. A ranking system would appear to reduce that effort by half; knowing the person's reputation among his/her peers, one only needs to assess the work. The problem with that reasoning is that electronic ranking systems are highly susceptible to manipulation. Building reputation becomes the goal of the activity for many people and they use all sorts of seemingly harmless social and technological means to inflate their numbers. Our lab has been studying this phenomenon through both observational studies of online communities and laboratory experiments. The two papers below report on the phenomenon as it presents itself in Digg, the news aggregation site. The first paper demonstrates that a tit-for-tat game of reciprocity inflates the reputation of contributors and their contributions without reflecting anything substantive about their contributions. The second paper really brings out the negative consequences of this phenomenon. The paper reports on an experiment where people judged how interesting they found the contribution. The ranking values of the articles were set by the investigator; sometime the rank of the article was set high, at other times low. Experimental subjects rated higher-ranked contributions as more interesting than lower ranked contributions. The same article was rated as highly interesting when its rank was set high and uninteresting when ranked low. Duncan Watts (of small-world networks fame) observed the same phenomenon with music rating. What this means in the present discussion is that people will likely ignore low ranking contributions. Worse still, when they do actually look at those contributions they are likely to see what the ranking value led them to expect rather than the qualities of the contribution itself. Unless we can find scientific research that demonstrates any benefits to ranking, I think we should be wary of using such systems. All best, John Sadlon, E., Sakamoto, Y., Dever, H. J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2008). The karma of Digg: Reciprocity in online social networks. In R. Gopal and R. Ramesh (Eds.), Proceedings of the 18th Annual Workshop on Information Technologies and Systems. http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/reciprocity.pdf Sakamoto, Y., Ma, J., & Nickerson, J. V. (2009). 2377 people like this article: The influence of others' decisions on yours. In N. Taatgen, H. van Rijn, L. Schomaker, and J. Nerbonne (Eds.), Proceedings of the 31st Annual Conference of the Cognitive Science Society. http://cog.mgnt.stevens-tech.edu/~yasu/papers/cogscidigg1.pdf Salganik, M. J., Dodds, P. S., and Watts, D. J. (2006). Experimental study of inequality and unpredictability in an artificial cultural market. Science, 311(5762):854-856. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1121066[/url] -------------------- m2f -------------------- (from forum) http://squeakland.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11554#11554 -------------------- m2f --------------------

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Etoys 4 release candidate 2
by Timothy Falconer 30 Sep '09

30 Sep '09

Hi everyone, We've just posted the second Etoys 4 release candidate: http://squeakland.org/download/ (scroll to bottom of page) This one has more translations and some bug fixes. We're one step closer to our final release on October 21st. Please help us by testing RC2 with your existing projects, and some new ones. And while you're there, upload a few to the showcase! Feel free to add tickets to our tracker. Here's a list of RC2 changes: http://tracker.squeakland.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?requestId=10500 Here's a list of current known issues: http://tracker.squeakland.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?requestId=10470 Take care, Tim

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squeakland website translation tasks
by Timothy Falconer 30 Sep '09

30 Sep '09

Hi everyone, I've added three tasks to the Squeakland tracker to help us as we translate all of the content on the Squeakland website into every language we know. There's essentially three kinds of text that need translating: RESOURCE FILE TEXT ... http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-480 ... sounds like we'll be putting this in Pootle DATABASE TEXT ... http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-481 HARDWIRED TEXT ... http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-482 Let's start by collecting and translating everything, putting things into the tracker attached to these issues. Hopefully we should go live with multiple languages before the Etoys 4 release on October 21st. Take care, Tim

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squeakland showcase is done, for now
by Timothy Falconer 29 Sep '09

29 Sep '09

Hi everyone, I've finished my work on the new Squeakland showcase. It should be considered beta (feature complete), with only bug fixes till next month. You can watch the new Showcase Preview video here: http://squeakland.org/resources/audioVisual/movie.jsp?id=62 Please take the time to watch this before making suggestions on how to improve it. To create an account so you can upload projects to the showcase, click here: http://squeakland.org/action/signup We *really* need you to upload good projects. We'll be doing a great deal of publicity for Etoys 4 and the showcase in late October. Till then, please upload projects, ask others to upload projects, and comment on projects. Consider this the "housewarming" period, where friends and family spruce up the place before the big party. Please help! Suggestions for showcase improvements can be added here: http://tracker.squeakland.org/ 1. click "showcase" to see other open issues, so you don't duplicate them 2. make an account 3. click "Create new Issue" 4. describe the issue, using "showcase" as the component Such suggestions will be reviewed by Squeakland for possible inclusion in November. Thank you for all of your suggestions and help. Now go tell some friends about it :) Take care, Tim

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!! Please Upload Your Etoys Projects !!
by Timothy Falconer 29 Sep '09

29 Sep '09

Hi everyone, With the launch of the beta Squeakland Showcase, we'd love for any and all to upload their favorite Etoys projects! Think of it as a Squeakland housewarming party, which for those that don't know the term, it's when friends come to your new house with gifts to make the house nicer for everyone. There's two ways you can upload projects: 1) If you're using the Etoys 4 release candidate, you can upload directly from Etoys. 2) If you're already got some PR files, the go to the showcase upload page: http://squeakland.org/showcase/upload Either way, you'll need to create a free account first. A few warnings though: A) any projects or project information with inappropriate content for children will be immediately deleted B) the showcase does not currently support non-latin alphabets (8859-1), such as Japanese, Russian, etc. We will fix this as soon as we can. You can still upload projects in these other languages, you just cannot use your alphabets in the project title, description, author, or tags. C) children under 13 must have their parent or guardian create their account for them We hope to have a great selection of projects before we go live with the Etoys 4 final on October 21st. Please spread the word to everyone you know. Please help us spruce up the showcase! Take care, Tim

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by buyandget1 28 Sep '09

28 Sep '09

XAFRON LIMITED is a leading supplier of high-end products to customers, we deal primarily in genuine and brand new electronics, all items are sourced directly from the manufacturers and carry the manufacturer's warranty. We ship 100% of our orders the same business day. We specialize in a wide range of products such as laptops, mobile phones, plasma & lcd tv, mp3 & mp4 players, Video games console, digital cameras, dvd players (Etc) at cheap & affordable prices. XAFRON LIMITED strive to offer high-quality products at competitive prices. All of our products are brand new, never used, never rebuilt. We maintain multiple-supplier sources for our products as a means of being able to continually offer the best products at the best prices. All of our products are backed by a 90-days, money-back guarantee. Contact us for further informations about extended warranty from manufacturer. We pride ourselves in the quality of products we offer, our prices, and most importantly, our customer service. For more informations regarding product and purchasing process send your enquiry to xafron(a)msn.com PRODUCT LIST: T-Mobile Phones: T-Mobile MDA Vario V---$140 T-Mobile Dash 3G---$150 T-Mobile myTouch 3G--$150 T-Mobile G2 Touch----$150 T-Mobile Sidekick LX 2009--$135 T-Mobile Sidekick LX 2008--$130 T-Mobile Sidekick LX -- $110 T-Mobile Shadow --- $115 T-Mobile G1 --- $125 T-Mobile Sidekick 3 --- $100 Juicy Couture Sidekick 2 -- $75 Apple iPhone: Apple iPhone 3G 8GB -- $135 Apple iPhone 3G 16GB -- $145 Apple iPhone 3GS 16GB---$195 Apple iPhone 3GS 32GB---$290 BlackBerry: BlackBerry Tour 9630----$220 BlackBerry Curve 8520---$230 Blackberry Curve 8900 -- $165 Blackberry Storm 9500 -- $135 Blackberry Storm 9530 -- $145 Blackberry Pearl Flip 8220 -- $110 Blackberry Bold 9000 -- $125 Blackberry Curve 8320 -- $115 HTC: HTC Ozone ----$200 HTC Hero---$250 HTC Magic---$200 HTC Snap-----$200 HTC Touch Diamond 2--$165 HTC Touch Pro2 -- $165 HTC Dream -- $135 HTC Touch Cruise 09 -- $135 HTC MAX 4G -- $155 HTC Touch HD -- $155 HTC Touch 3G -- $145 HTC Touch Viva -- $135 HTC S740 -- $145 HTC Touch Pro -- $140 HTC Touch Diamond -- $130 HTC Touch Cruise -- $125 Eten: Eten glofiish X610 -- $125 Eten glofiish V900 -- $225 Eten glofiish X900 -- $175 Eten glofiish DX900 -- $155 Eten glofiish M810 -- $145 Eten glofiish X650 -- $135 Eten glofiish M800 -- $150 Nokia: Nokia 5530 XpressMusic--$200 Nokia 6760 slide----$240 Nokia 6790 Surge--$250 Nokia E72---$270 Nokia N86------$250 Nokia N96 16GB-- $160 Nokia E90 -- $155 Nokia N97 -- $165 Nokia N79 -- $145 Nokia E71 -- $140 Nokia 8800 Sapphire Arte -- $205 Nokia N93i -- $125 Nokia 8800 Sirocco --- $165 Sony Ericsson: Sony Ericsson Idou-----$175 Sony Ericsson C510 -- $165 Sony Ericsson P1 -- $125 Sony Ericsson C905 -- $145 Sony Ericsson W960 -- $130 Sony Ericsson G900 -- $150 Sony Ericsson XPERIA X1 -- $155 Sony Ericsson C902 -- $130 Sony Ericsson W902 -- $145 Samsung: Samsung S5600v Blade---$200 Samsung S8000 Jet------$180 Samsung i8910 Omnia HD -------$165 Samsung I8000 Omnia II-----$180 Samsung i900 Omnia 16GB -- $160 Samsung Omnia 8GB -------$150 Samsung T929 Memoir -- $155 Samsung T919 Behold -- $155 Samsung Giorgio Armani P520 -- $105 Samsung U900 Soul -- $1105 Samsung G800 -- $105 Samsung F490 -- $90 LG Phones: LG KU990 Viewty---$175 LG GW550--$230 LG KC910 Renoir -- $215 LG KB770 -- $210 LG CB630 Invision -- $205 LG HB620T -- $185 LG KC550 -- $180 LG KS360 -- $175 LG KF750 Secret -- $155 LG KT610 -- $135 LG KU990 Viewty -- $160 LG KS20 Smartphone -- $165 Video Games Console: PlayStation: Sony PSP Slim -- $100 Sony PlayStation 3 160GB----$250 Sony PlayStation 3 80GB -- $155 Sony PlayStation 3 60GB -- $140 Sony PlayStation 3 40GB -- $125 Microsoft Xbox: Xbox 360 Arcade Console -- $105 Xbox 360 Pro 60GB Console -- $135 Xbox 360 Elite 120GB Console -- $155 Nintendo: Nintendo DS Lite -- $55 Nintendo DS i-----$80 Nintendo Wii Console -- $110 Apple iPod itouchs: Apple iPod itouch 32GB--------$120 Apple iPod itouch 16GB--------$110 Apple iPod itouch 8GB--------$100 APPLE LAPTOPS Apple Macbook Air............................$500 Apple MacBook (MA700LL/A) Mac Notebook...$450usd Apple MacBook Pro (MA611LL/A) Notebook...$450usd Apple MacBook (MA254LL/A) Mac Notebook...$400usd Apple iBook G3 (M7698LL/A) Mac Notebook..$350usd Apple MacBook Pro (MA609LL/A) Notebook...$500usd Apple MacBook Pro (MA600LLA) Notebook...$450usd Apple MacBook Pro (MA610LL/A) Notebook...$400usd Apple Macbook Pro (885909119400) Notebook..$405usd We maintain multiple-supplier sources for our products as a means of being able to continually offer the best products at the best prices. All of our products are backed by a 90-days, money-back guarantee. (Contact us for further informations about extended warranty from manufacturer). Contact us for more details about our return policy, company terms and conditions as well as how to obtain extended warranty form from the manufacturer when placing an order with XAFRON LIMITED We are committed to doing all it takes to keep you a satisfied customer! Many thanks and God bless you as you place your order with XAFRON LIMITED For Online Chat Add This ID To Either Yahoo! Chat Or Msn Chat: xafron(a)msn.com Gladly Mr.Nathanson Khalid XAFRON LIMITED E-mail: xafron(a)msn.com -------------------- m2f -------------------- (from forum) http://squeakland.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11388#11388 -------------------- m2f --------------------

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squeakland September 2009