At 12:21 PM -0800 11/8/99, jecel at lsi.usp.br wrote:
-- SNIP --
Alan>> So, there are many things to like about Self. The aspects of Self I
found
>> less appealing were those that dealt with meta-issues like "classness",
>> inheritance, underlying frameworks, reflection, etc. Here I felt that Self
>> was too LISP-like, and didn't do a great job of either protecting its
>> metasystem or of representing it.
>
>I guess I didn't understand this since I just agree with the "representing"
>part. Self 4 hides its real metasystem in C++ level objects which can't
>be accessed from Self (it is hard to be more protective than that), but
>then it presents the user with a totally fake metasystem based on a set
>of primitive calls and mirror objects. Hmmm, I think I am talking about
>implementation level things while Alan is complaining about things like
>parent slots, right?

Yes.

-- snip stuff I basically agree with --

In the children's programming system in Squeak, the approach is that the
child makes a concrete example and then can generalize it. I have always
thought this to be better than starting with the class abstraction and
eventually being able to get an instance. This is why I like parts of the
prototype approach. However, things can then quickly get out of hand unless
more "classness" is introduced to help build the abstractions needed ...

Alan >> it is also the case that getting
>> instances from another structure is a metalevel deeper than just copying,
>> and it needs to be protected and aided by an abstraction.
>
>But getting instances from other, but identical instances is at the same
>level as copying (think of cells reproducing - do we really need factories?).
>
 This misses that instances dynamically feel changes to their parent, and
copies don't. This is why instancing is a meta operation ...

>Now programming environments are a matter of taste - I prefer to spread
>out a dozen or more outliners in front of me to the traditional multipane
>browsers, which other people are completely lost without an "anchor" like
>what the Smalltalk System Browser offers.

This is just what the viewers in the children's programming system do (and
will continue to gain useful features). However, there is still need for
smarter UIs to handle the overabundance of content that programming seems
to need.

Cheers,

Alan