At 12:33 24.02.00 -0500, Paul Fernhout wrote:
>Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:
>> For business applications, I'd recommend to stay with Dolphin ST.  Its
>> application framework (called MVP - Model View Presenter) is IMHO one of
>> the best things invented for Smalltalk.  Squeak has nothing comparable
>> (yet).
>
>Sad, but true...
>[...]
>It's especially sad because if even 1/10 the effort that went into
>Morphic was spent making some standard widgets under MVC (drop down
>lists), simplifying install and distribution of an EXE/whatever, and
>making the base distribution a minimalist one (with stuff like Alice or
>VM generation added as desired rather than removed), Squeak would
>probably have a hundred times as many users and have/had a real chance
>of big success against Java, Python, etc.

A little bit too optimistic IMHO but I agree in principle.

I don't think that it would be worth the effort to work on MVC.  Better
create a lightweight morphic-like thing that will replace it eventually
(see my other email).  Creating an MVC gui is like working in the stone
age.  Morphic is better but bloated with cool and interesting
functionalitly which still isn't not needed for business applications and
which better should be factored out. It's a little bit slower but that
actually there's no reason why it couldn't be as fast as MVC once you get
rid of that extra stuff like players.

Installation is pretty easy and could be even easier if we'd use tools like
InstallShield (or similar quasi-standard tools for other platforms) or have
a self-installing Squeak eventually.

Deployment, I agree, is still very difficult and it borders to magic (a
saying that at least in German makes sense) to strip an image in an optimal
way.

I'm also a fan of minimalism and I'd prefer a modularized system.  However,
I'm also a big fan of development images as this allows one to continue
exactly in that state where you left you system.  Pretty nice and even
Windows 2000 starts to support such a feature now.

A smaller system would - I think - attract more users as it is easier to
understand and to learn.  Even a command line mode would be a good thing here.

>It would seem obvious to me that a successful squeak would be:
>[...]

I agree completely. Unfortunately, I cannot affort to pay something [as
Paul suggested later in his email].  It's a devel's circle.  Once the
system is in a state ready for project you could probably attract customers
and do some payed work but you need work (and money!) to reach that state
first.

>==== a business proposal for people who want to make business apps =====

That's a great proposal.  But I'm not sure whether you know what you
offered here.  It's a lot of work for one person.  (So if anybody wants to
spend even more money on the development of Squeak, I'd happily join that
paid development force ;-)

>[...]
>* either a couple of PD or licensed fonts or maybe OS loadable fonts (if
>  legal), 

I'd prefer if I could use MS TTF fonts on Windows.  I *hate* the poor
quality of X fonts (at least as configured as at work).  Loading of other
TTFs would be nice as I'm a fontaholic.

>[...]
>* image generated from scratch (maybe),

This would have a very low priority for me.  Actually I see no immediate need.

>* VM GUI events (maybe), and

I'd change maybe to definitely.  At least things like #resize should be
passed to the Squeak system so that you don't need to manually call
"restore screen".

>Note: I don't propose delivering Windows or other platform specific
>frills like native widgets, COM support, or ODBC support. Squeak/Pro

...although database support is a must.  ODBC seems to be a good solution
to start with as this allows Windows users to access nearly everything and
ODBC is also often available for other platforms.


bye
--
Stefan Matthias Aust  //  Bevor wir fallen, fallen wir lieber auf.