Les,

I am also very interested in this kind of thing and would like to be kept in
the loop.

I am also currently pretty swamped (another new startup) but will try to
help if you can point at small things that need to be done or researched.

Jerome

> -----Original Message-----
> From: slosher at vnet.net [mailto:slosher at vnet.net]On Behalf Of Robert
> Withers
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 9:31 AM
> To: squeak at cs.uiuc.edu
> Subject: Re: Dynamic Object Document Browsing ( was Class Comments )
>
>
> Les,
>
> I am very interested in this kind of thing.  Especially in terms of
> external documentation with a collection of diagrams exposing different
> dimensions of Class/Object context (inheritence is obvious, but a auto
> generated view of collaborations and responsibiliies would be key).  I
> am pretty swamped with Linda at the moment but after that stabilizes,
> then I would like to jump into this area.  Please keep me in the loop if
> you take it off the list.
>
> cheers,
> Rob
>
> Les Tyrrell wrote:
> >
> > Alan Kay wrote:
> > >
> > > I think that class comments should come up automatically (perhaps in a
> > > separate pane) when the class level is reached in the browser. I don't
> > > think it helps very much to have it entangled with the
> instance/class view
> > > distinction. I generally want to keep on reading them
> (especially if class
> > > comments were more like real documentation) while perusing
> the methods, etc.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Alan
> >
> > This got me to thinking about something I've been wanting to do for some
> > time, and which others on the list such as Bob Arning have been
> doing parts
> > of already in such things as the various Morphic class browsers
> ( Whiskers? ).
> >
> > For quite a while I've been trying to come up with a way of
> interacting as
> > directly as possible with objects, while also having each
> object provide as
> > many views of itself as possible.  Again, some of the things
> that I wanted
> > have been built by some- MathMorphs for instance have some similarity to
> > what I am after.
> >
> > I want to be able to easily shift views on an object, but
> without requiring
> > the object to have lots of code in it to support the generation of those
> > views.  Ideally, none.  I want to interact with all objects,
> not just the
> > ones that have special purpose user interface thingies built for them.
> >
> > To give an example, let's consider code browsing activities.  Suppose
> > as in Alan's example above that we are in some fashion wandering about
> > the classes, reading their comments and occasionally wanting to look
> > at code.
> >
> > Right now, with the CHB we are locked into a view of the classes which
> > was first created not less than 20 years ago, a pretty good view for
> > most work, but nonetheless only a single view, and representing perhaps
> > the viewpoint of a small number of programmers, perhaps only one.  It's
> > held up very well over the decades, but let's consider some options...
> >
> > Suppose my aim is to browse through class comments, and in
> those comments
> > are links ( preferrably with dynamically generated associative
> links that
> > don't require special codes or tags on the part of the authors
> as well as
> > those that are created by the authors ).  Perhaps they are
> links to other
> > classes, or other new objects that currently don't exist as part of the
> > standard Smalltalk model, such as interface-like things.  If
> the comments
> > are well written, and the links meaningful, then I would probably stick
> > to that kind of view and interaction model for quite a while as
> I look at
> > some framework that is new to me.  But at some point I'll want to shift
> > my interaction/view model to something a bit different.  I may find a
> > class that sounds particularly interesting, and I'll want to now look
> > at something like a class interaction diagram.  Obviously, we don't have
> > those as part of the standard code browsing framework- but to
> some extent
> > these things can be generated dynamically, and if available I could then
> > shift into a view where I see the class in which I was
> interested appearing
> > perhaps near the center of a diagram in which the Roles ( not classes )
> > of the other objects it interacts with are shown, and in which I can
> > quickly select an interaction relationship to obtain a view of the
> > messages being sent by each role in the interaction.  Again, I would
> > want an ability to quickly shift to a view in which I see how
> those messages
> > have been implemented *in this context* and *no other*.  I would want
> > to be able to look at the messages sent back and forth in the
> interaction
> > between roles, and only those messages, and see them either one
> at a time
> > or in various views in which they are shown simultaneously, and in those
> > views be able to modify them or request other information about each
> > message or group of messages.  I would want complete control over what
> > is shown, and in what manner, and I want as many alternatives for each
> > view/interaction model as possible, and I want the burden placed upon
> > my object models to be as light as possible, preferrably nil.
> >
> > I've tried several times to build this sort of thing, and have made
> > some progress on some of my goals.  However, for me it has been a
> > pretty tough problem.  But I really believe that if I had this sort
> > of interaction framework that it would really be something.  A framework
> > in which arbitrarily complex object models could be viewed in arbitrary
> > fashion, and completely at the whim of the user, would be very useful
> > in much of what I do.
> >
> > Is anyone else out there interested in the same thing, or interested in
> > a collaboration project on something like this?  It would be trivial
> > for me to set up and host a wiki on this topic.
> >
> > -les
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------
> Smalltalking by choice.  Isn't it nice to have one!
>
>