Hi Dan

I sent this email because I was frustrated to see just the top of the iceberg.
I was thinking ok he made that like that. and I like your answer.

I think that this kind of email is the price (cheap even if time is our most 
precious resource) for transparency and mutual understanding
so thanks.

I will try the new synatx as soon as the new version is released 
(I'm still loving a lot the stability of VW :) even if it is grey :)


I think that this is good to have new syntax around to play with.
but this should be for a better one. What I like with the normal one is the 
simplicity. 

So I really wonder why kids or nonprofessional learn faster 
with non uniformity.  


For the tiles system, I really interested by that too.
And especially the connection between the tiles and the code
because the fact that only a subset f the language and that the 
connection between the tile and the methods were not there make it 
not pratical. 

So a debugger with tile could be great ;)
Where when I moved the mouse over them they tell I'm that with that state ;)

> Resent-date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:32:10 +0000
> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:36:06 -0700
> Resent-from: squeak at cs.uiuc.edu
> From: Dan Ingalls <Dan.Ingalls at disney.com>
> Subject: Re: About the new syntax
> Resent-sender: squeak-request at cs.uiuc.edu
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> 
> Stephane Ducasse <ducasse at iam.unibe.ch> wrote...
> 
> >Did Kim tried the new syntax with kids?
> >
> >It would be good to evaluate (two groups one we the normal and one with new)
> >if the new syntax is better.
> >
> >What is the process that you are planning to put in place to evaluate the
> >effectivness of the new syntax?
> >
> >Only how we react or also kids?
> >
> >>From the experience we have with kids here. They do not have any problems 
> >with the old syntax.
> 
> Hi Stephane -
> 
> I'm glad to hear it.  It must be obvious that I'm as much of a fan of normal 
Smalltalk as anyone.
> 
> Frequently in our history, we have tried to step back and take a fresh look at 
things.  Alan and others of us have wondered, numerous times, if changing things 
a bit this way or that might make Squeak more "approachable" for newbies, or for 
people who are used to other scripting languages available in various corners of 
the internet.  This becomes more understandable when you think of little 
hypercard-like bits of scripted content distributed around the internet.
> 
> So, after hand-translating a number of methods, and not being sure if we could 
compile this or that, I decided to bite the bullet and produce a framework for 
experimentation.  AS A PLACEHOLDER, I implemented a syntax that was a lot like 
some of our jottings, and similar to a colon-free syntax that I derived in a 
message (on 2/17) responding to Aran Lunzer's query about terminal keywords.
> 
> THE FRAMEWORK is what this is about.  It's even a bit of a hack compared to 
what one might want in a flexible syntax layer, but it does allow one to "turn 
on" a completely different syntax at the flip of a switch, and yet continue to 
save and share work in standard ST-80.  Moreover the test routine in 
DialectParser allows one to determine at any time whether the syntax you have 
implemented can decompile and recompile all 30,000 methods in the system without 
changing one bytecode.
> 
> As soon as the framework seems solid, I'm kind of hoping to withdraw, and let 
other people try some other approaches.  See, now instead of flaming, everyone 
can implement their own favorite syntax, and send around some real examples.  If 
anything looked like a clear winner, all of Squeakville could be using it a day 
later!  Similarly, to answer your question above, as soon as we have one we 
like, we can now try it out easily with kids or Disney executives or whoever.
> 
> Right now I'm a bit more excited about some experiments Scott Wallace is doing 
to bridge the gap between programs as text and the tile scripts in Morphic.  If 
one could take a beginner through the first hour of exploring Squeak, playing 
with "good-old" ST-80, but never having to write it, I think we would have a 
good start.
> 
> 	- Dan
> 
> 

Stephane DUCASSE (ducasse at iam.unibe.ch) http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/
"if you knew today was your last day on earth, what would you do 
different? ... especially if, by doing something different, today 
might not be your last day on earth" Calvin&Hobbes

University of Bern, Institut fuer informatik and Mathematik
IAM-SCG, 10 neubruckstrasse, CH-3012 Bern, Switzerland.