Computers in school [college a waste?]

Joshua 'Schwa' Gargus schwa at cc.gatech.edu
Wed Aug 8 13:56:00 UTC 2001


Good Morning!

On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:09:24AM -0400, Rosemary Michelle Simpson wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Aaron wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday, August 7, 2001, at 04:57 PM, Rosemary Michelle Simpson wrote:
> > 
> > > Completely agree!  The quality of the teacher is critical to the kind of
> > > experiences I had and that you had in Biology.  I was taking issue with
> > > your general statement about "how the first two years of college seem to
> > > go" and college education being a giant waste of money.
> > 
> > Ok, my apologies, this is getting pretty unrelated to Squeak...
> 
> I think it is extremely related, at least to the use of Squeak in
> education, because real human experiences are what we have to build on if
> the Squeak tools are to be effective.  Solid theory to facilitate
> extrapolation and transfer to other domains plus grounding in actual
> experiences, not just speculation about what people want.  So, I find your
> accounts to be extremely relevant

Yes.

> > Don't get me wrong- I think college is overrated, and is unnecessary for
> > many, and thus a complete waste of money for a lot of people. However,
> > that's the reality with the current job market
> 
> For me the job market issue is irrelevant wrt the value of college.  I
> have always opposed the idea of college as a job training institution.
> The role of college is much more to open new ways of thinking,
> strategies for dealing with conflicting information, and skill for
> exploring new domains.

Ah, but insofar as college has become a job training institution, Aaron's
point still holds: college is, by and large, overrated.  I agree with you
that if college were doing a good job of "opening up new ways of thinking, etc.",
then the job market would be far less relevant wrt the value of college.

> The world and the job market rapidly change, so that skills and specific
> knowledge is very quickly outdated.  The ongoing need is for minds trained
> in analyzing and synthesizing previously unknown material, minds that can
> think outside the box.  This is precisely what really good college
> courses, both in the humanities and in the sciences, provide.  Learning
> how to think and adapt to change. This was true when I graduated in 1963
> and is far more true now.
> 
> Even though I have spent my adult life in computers, I have always been
> glad that my major was History, because it was there, and in the
> philosophy courses I took, that I learned how to think, how to see
> patterns, how to avoid cognitive package deals.  IBM knew this in the late
> 60's when they were hiring for the S/360 technical support positions -
> they hired liberal arts graduates who had good spatial, pattern
> recognition, and logical skills and then trained them in the specific
> computer skills.
>
> > In my first two years of college, only that Biology I class would I say
> > was worth the money.  Everything else thus far I've gained very little
> > other than what could be gleaned from the text book and other print
> > resources.
> > 
> > While that may have something to do with the school I go to, which isn't
> > a really great public or private college.  Maybe I'm just know more
> > than most people at this school and at this stage of their education.
> > But for whatever reason, I don't spend much time out of class doing
> > homework (at least there's not terribly much busywork) or really
> > learning anything beyond what's in the required readings.
> 

I went to the University of Alberta, which is a reasonably good
university by Canada's reasonably good educational standards, and my
experience matches with yours to an extent.  Thinking back on my
undergraduate schooling, only about 1/4 of my classes taught me
anything beyond the contents of the text.  In particularly
poorly-taught classes, I would occasionally get so frustrated with my
professor that I would sit in the front row, conspicuously reading my
textbook rather than wasting my attention on the lecture itself.  On
those occasions, I do not believe that the professor was ever
conscious enough of the classroom situation to notice my small
statement on the quality of their lecture.


> Why not?  Why don't you use the resources of the Internet to expand upon
> the required readings and to explore things you are interested in with
> other communities you can find online.  Like this one. 
> 
> > No, I don't like to admit that.  I pay for all of my education, so 
> > admitting that it is at least a partial waste of money kind of hurts,
> > but it's true.  I also expect and hope for that to change, in my next
> > few years.

Hint: try to pick classes based on the reputation of the teacher,
rather than the course content.  Some of my most rewarding classes (CS
or not) were in areas that weren't my main interest.  For example, my
interest in Smalltalk was kindled 3 years ago by Duane Szafron, who
taught me a course on the implementation of object-oriented systems
(garbage collection, polymorphic inline caching, etc.)

Had I not taken this class based on hearing that Duane is a superb and
enthusiastic professor, I might not today be a part of the wonderful
Squeak community.

> >
> > I find this most true of a CS education.  Recently, most CS majors are
> > there because it means a job, and it's overkill for people who are
> > concerned with nothing in life other than making $80k/year.

That is true.

> 
> Tragically, that's much too true.  It doesn't have to be for you, however.
> CS is one of the richest areas to explore on the Web and there are many
> many lists, sub-communities such as this one, that explore specific areas
> quite deeply.  The fact that your peers have limited views of what life is
> about doesn't have to limit you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah!  What Rosemary said!

During the course of this email, I appear to have roused myself from
near-stupor to a semblance of consciousness.  What a pleasant way to
wake up!

Best,
Joshua


> 
>  > It sounds arrogant and short-sighted, and it probably is... 
> 
> You sound, quite legitimately, frustrated to me.  Hope what I said helps.
> That is my intention.
> 
> R.
> 
> 




More information about the Squeak-dev mailing list