On Friday 07 June 2002 09:33,  Ricardo L. A. Bánffy wrote:
> I am sorry for the huge post, but several ideas were screaming to get
> out.
>
> A Squeak Foundation could be a very smart move.

Yes, as long as we know what we want from it.

> As I see it now (forgive and correct me where I am wrong) Squeak has
> a couple major drawbacks when it comes to market penetration:

And here is another: Squeak is so much more ambitious than anything 
else out there that there is really no comparison. I mean - just look 
at Squeak and, for example, Python side by side. That has a negative 
side effect - Python feels more finished, or ready, while Squeak feels 
like it is in constant development and not ready for "market 
penetration".

The reality is that in the distant future Python might have a lot of 
what Squeak already has and might become suitable for some of the thing 
that are already being done in Squeak. In that sense it is far less 
along than Squeak. But that isn't how it feels to people.

> - Nobody outside very restricted (and selected) circles knows about
> it. It did (among other things) hurt Smalltalk and now hurts Squeak
> because no one sees Squeak articles in magazines, there are no Squeak
> oriented magazines and so, nobody will _feel safe_ choose Squeak for
> anything real.

And people who have heard of Smalltalk (or even Squeak) before often 
have a vague idea that "it was tried long ago and then people moved on 
to better things". So sometimes having people meet Smalltalk for the 
first time in 2002 actually helps :-)

Actually, there is a great Squeak magazine (http://www.squeaknews.com/) 
but non Squeakers (or even casual Squeakers) are unlikely to know about 
it. A print magazine can be seen in bookstores by people who were not 
looking for it, but I don't think even Java or C++ magazine have 
reached that level of penetration.

There have been a few individual efforts to include Squeak articles in 
more general magazines.

> - Maybe because of what I described earlier, but Squeak looks and
> feels way too alien for most computer users. Sure it may look like
> the original ST system, but it was, indeed, quite alien to Windows
> and Macintosh users who, in the end, use our software.

That is a feature, not a bug! Making it look the same on the outside 
will result in it being ignored by those who are longing for something 
different on the inside and at the same time it will eventually 
disappoint those who were attracted to it hoping for something familiar.

While there would be people who would be initially attracted by the 
familiar appearance and then would be pleasantly surprised to see how 
different it actually is, my guess is that this would be a small group.

> The Squeak
> windows-within-a-window appearance certainly doesn't help this
> perception.

I have used many other Smalltalks with "native" windows and I know what 
you mean. If we were still MVC based I might agree with you, but 
Morphic really wants the whole screen to itself. Always running it full 
screen is a way to get rid of the windows-within-a-window strangeness...

> Please remember that the levels of dumbness among
> end-users can reach very high levels.

I don't agree with this at all. Yes, I have heard all the funny stories 
about users calling technical support about their broken "cup holders" 
(CD drives). But it is a matter of thinking differently rather than 
necessarily being stupid. I bet most of those technical folks laughing 
behind the user's backs would do even worse if placed in an unfamiliar 
environment (in front of an old fashioned sewing machine, for example).

> Here in Brazil we say, when we
> want to call someone stupid, that if grass were to change color,
> he/she would starve to death. In Squeak, all windows have different
> colors ;-)

I have never heard this saying... it doesn't seem to work in English.

> - Squeak lacks a killer application. It hurts Squeak because when you
> become aware of a killer application you instantly become aware of
> the underlying infra-structure. It is said, in Zope circles, Zope (a
> web application server written in Python) is the killer application
> of Python as there seem to be more programmers who learn Python
> because of Zope than for any other reason. When I was invited to work
> with Zope I joked we almost had to apologize to our customers for not
> using a Java-based app server.

The most likely killer application will be scripting+wonderlands. See 
the fish bowl demo. It is still a bit too rough, though.

> I am a relative newcomer to Squeak, but by no means it is my first
> contact with Smalltalk. I recall being shown Smalltalk/V running
> under DOS on a PC/AT back when the dominant PC virus was ping-pong. I
> blame my early contact with Smalltalk and Actor (an ST-like language
> for Windows) with my (largely successful) refusal to learn C++ and my
> reluctance and utter unhappiness using Java.

And I still run V/DOS on a 386 laptop that is far too limited for 
Squeak or even SqueakNOS.

> As I see it, a Squeak Foundation should have some clear goals
>
> - To increase media-awareness of Smalltalk as a stable, mature and
> reliable development tool. This could be achieved by giving
> presentations on trade-shows (I intended to present Squeak in the
> upcoming COMDEX/SP, but missed the deadline bad - I will try again
> next year).

If you need help with this, please contact me. I gave lots of Squeak 
demos at a small tech fair last year (Fealtec São Carlos-SP) and with 
just one presenter you can barely scratch the surface. Several people 
showing different aspects of Squeak would be far better. You have to 
get your message across in a few seconds.

> There are many others all over the place and it is clear
> to me that many subscribers of this list would have a lot (much more
> than I would - I intended to do a primer) to show in many different
> places. Having grabbed a critical-mass of attention among
> journalists, frequent press-releases could keep the subject hot.
> Squeak World Tour could also be interesting, but infiltrating
> mainstream events could reach more people.

Unless you are thinking of having SF provide financial support for 
these presentations then informal efforts by list members might be 
enough. But a single source of press releases and such might be nice.

> - To increase Squeak awareness in academic circles and curricula. Way
> too many students are introduced to OOP with Java. When it comes to
> the traditional edit-compile-link-run cycle, Java's single progress
> is dropping the "link" part ;-)

Too bad UFSC and UFPE have mostly moved to Java - they used to be where 
most people in Brazil met Smalltalk.

Check out ESUG's efforts:

    http://www.esug.org/sponsoring/promotionProgram.html

> - To promote work done in Squeak. Because maybe we already have a
> killer app and we just don't know it.

Or perhaps we did and it was killed in the dot crash :-(

> - To encourage a consistent look and feel for Squeak apps. It helps
> when you see a screenshot of something and you can say "Gee. it seems
> done in Squeak"

But you said you didn't like lots of bright colors ;-)

> - To find out how to induce IBM to invest a billion dollars in Squeak
> ;-)

You might have to get it to drop its own Smalltalk first, and that 
would not be a good thing.

> - To provide a unified and consistent set of documentation, tutorials
> and how-tos. This could be achieved largely by adapting current
> tutorials to a single look and feel. Remember ST is quite alien for
> the average programmer and those smart people with brains damaged due
> to excessive use of Java or C++ should get all our help and
> compassion.

It is not alien if it is the first thing you learned. Working with kids 
isn't such a bad strategy after all. Logo is a push over :-)

> - To provide a single reference point for all things Squeak.

Squeak.org does a good job at that. The other starting points 
(Squeakland, Squeak Foundation...) are mutually linked. Too bad so much 
of the good stuff is in the Swikis and newcomers rarely look there.

> And, before I am under a flame-war, where are the squeakfoundation
> list archives? I would love to read them.

  http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeakfoundation/

You might find this site interesting:

  http://www.whysmalltalk.com

-- Jecel