I agree on the modules stuff, but I think that digresses a bit from the
topic of SqF.

Regarding the billion bucks, I think I'd have to at least consider it if
it were offered.  Whether I accepted it would depend on what strings
were attached.  I don't think it's hurt the Linux world in any
significant way.

Regarding Debian, I agree, but I wouldn't be surprised if they
eventually found a way of generating financial support to continue what
they're doing.  Last I looked at Debian, it was very far behind the
other distributions without venturing into "test" land and there was a
lot of tumult on the mailing lists.  Now, the last thing I want to do is
to start a flame war about Linux distros, so, let me end by saying that
I have no experience with actually using Debian, and they could very
well end up sustaining themselves without any full time commitment by
anyone.

I also consider any time that someone spends working on an open source
effort to be the equivalent of financial support.  After all, they are
giving up their time, which could otherwise be used, to contribute to
the effort.

I once heard Peter Deutsch say that he had a hard time finding any open
source software that wasn't (at least partially) funded by commercial
enterprise (whether willing or unwilling (by virtue of employees doing
open source on company time)).  Indeed, look at Squeak, who's lifeblood
(in terms of giving people time to work on Squeak) thus far has been
Xerox, Apple, and Disney.

In the end, the key is sustaining an active and vibrant community, and
I'd argue that with all of the competition for people's time from other
open source efforts that that is in jeopardy.  For example, if you were
to become a guru in the development of Apache or the Linux kernel, there
is a very good chance that you could build a career around that (as a
side benefit).  Right now in Squeak land, with the corporate sponsored
research having gone away (at least momentarily), the only source for
commercial funding of Squeak that I can see is through academic
institutions that are interested in Squeak for it's learning and
research virtues.

- Stephen

danielv at netvision.net.il wrote:
> I disagree. I see Debian/Linux as the sort of success the SqF 
> should be. That doesn't depend on money, it depends on a 
> clear process that 
> 
> A. Gives all possible initiative to the individual, in 
> complete contrast to our own current setup, where making a 
> contribution *that lasts* is always dependent on at least 3 
> people that are usually uncoordinated - 
> 
> John D. Squeaker -> a Harvester -> SqC current integrator
> 
> B. Maintains enough cohesion between these independent parts 
> using shared poicies, mechanisms and repositories.
> 
> I think we need a billion bucks like a hole in the head.
> 
> What we need is people to propose to homestead a bunch of 
> modules and then make those as good as they can, with peoples 
> modules' published in a public shared repository *outside the 
> limited access space of internal updates*.
> 
> This repository is the the *existing, public* net repository 
> on the squeak foundation site.
> 
> Publishing there is this easy -
> <get a user/password from Cees for you personal project space 
> on the SqF
> site>
> | mod |
> mod _ Module fromPath: #(People dvf MailNotifier) 
> forceCreate: true. MailNotifier moveTo: mod. "(you need my 
> changeset of MovingClasses for this convinience message)" mod 
> repository beStandalone. ModuleInstaller upload: mod 
> 
> There. You want to see my MailNotifier? first delete the one 
> in you image (that's okay, it's broken). Then, 
> ModuleInstaller fullyInstallFromPath: #(People dvf 
> MailNotifier) <do it>
> 
> That's it, look at your top left corner. Not only are 
> comments bug reports and so on welcome, *I can even act on 
> them* by just publishing again. And anyone can get the new 
> version in 7 seconds flat.
> 
> Daniel
> 
> Stephen Pair <spair at advantive.com> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, I doubt that a squeak foundation will have 
> much success 
> > without some sort of financial support (at least not the kind of 
> > success that most people here would like to see).  And, with very 
> > little commercial activity in Squeak, that financial 
> support might be 
> > a long way off.  If only we could convince IBM to invest $1 billion 
> > into Squeak.
> > 
> > - Stephen
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: squeak-dev-admin at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > [mailto:squeak-dev-admin at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On 
> > > Behalf Of Tim Rowledge
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:01 PM
> > > To: squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > > Subject: RE: Reality Check
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "PhiHo Hoang" <phiho.hoang at rogers.com> is claimed by the
> > > authorities to have written:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Tim,
> > > > 
> > > > > since I was one of the starters of the whole thing ..
> > > > 
> > > > 	I recall you are the one who made me move my butt. ;-)
> > > > 
> > > > 	But, the man who really started the whole thing was,
> > > hmmm, wasn't
> > > > that Dave Thomas ?
> > > Yes, so far as I'm aware he had the idea, approached Dan,
> > > John Sarkela and me to see waht we thought and it went from there.
> > > > 
> > > > 	I wonder what's his feeling for a real SqueakFoundation
> > > after all
> > > > these happenings.
> > > Disappointment last time I spoke with him.
> > > 
> > > tim
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Tim Rowledge, tim at sumeru.stanford.edu, 
> > > http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim If a train > station is where 
> > > the train stops, what is a work station?
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> 
>