So what you have just said by

" But if you aren't on the list, you don't have to even deal with the
changes. The current version (3.0) is plenty stable for real work. As
was 2.8."

reads to the newbie (and to me...fairly new) as..."there is no support
for Squeak to the end user...just the developers of Squeak.  Use the
stable release and like it."

and
" Sure, people are improving it day by day. It's just that most of that 
activity is happening on the list where it is semi-public."

There are NO other Squeak lists...are there?
So why isn't there a newbie-list? Which has been asked for previously on
here...or at least a DIGEST version that doesn't flood a newbie with
100s of to them, useless emails.  THIS LIST IS *NOT* NEWBIE (much less,
"user") FRIENDLY!

Finally, you've proved my point by:
" But, as far as I can tell, Squeak Central is not much interested in
promoting Squeak as a corporate replacement for Java. They have their
own uses for  Squeak."

The point is they don't promote Squeak for NEW users, but to those who
like the thrill of working on THEIR pet project. "Developer's toy"
again.  Unless this mindset changes, Squeak will always remain a "niche"
toy (a "toy" language--in the programming meaning of the word "toy") for
developers, by developers, and only those developers who have an
interest in playing with the toy rather than using the toy.  It will
never become a useful TOOL for software developers.  The point of Squeak
shouldn't be to allow a select group of Smalltalk fiends to test out
their own pet projects, but a SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT TOOL, others should
be able to use with minimal pain.  

I found it sad that people on here scoffed at Apple promoting Java as
the only viable cross-platform tool.  The point is, IT IS.  Squeak (the
implied thought by the scoffers) is NOT a serious development platform
(despite what people on here may think) BECAUSE OF THE MINDSET OF THE
CORE DEVELOPERS AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON THE LIST.

Stop thinking of Squeak as your OWN little toy.  Start thinking of it
and treating it as a production-quality tool, and you may get somewhere.

That being said, I still think Squeak is one cool "potential"
development tool, and worth the effort (in my case).  But MOST
developers want a tool they can use, not a tool they have to work on.

Also, the mentality of "if you want it, or suggest it, you own it and
should do it" is very demeaning...one of I'm superior and I have more
important things to work on and you SHOULD be smart enough to do it
yourself.  Get it through your heads; not everyone with a good
suggestion IS a Squeak/Smalltalk expert.


Suggestions:
a) Create a newbie list targeted at USERS.
b) Create a core Squeak product that allows you to code in Smalltalk AND
NOTHING ELSE.  Make it expandable if the person wants to grow later.
c) Give it a good interface (Sorry, but even Morphic looks like the
diagrams in the original Smalltalk books I have).
d) Provide a comprehensive, SIMPLE to understand, user manual.
e) Provide a comprehensive, SIMPLE Squeak/Smalltalk manual.
f) Change your attitude toward people who know less than you do.


Sorry if I'm upsetting a few people on here.  But I mean well.  I'm
trying to get Squeak out of its closet.  If I upset you, then obviously,
you are one of the people that NEEDS to change...

Cheers,
S

 



-----Original Message-----
From: squeak-dev-admin at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:squeak-dev-admin at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Ned
Konz
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 11:16 AM
To: squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Subject: Re: Comments welcome: designer look for squeak - User
friendliness..

On Saturday 30 March 2002 06:15 am, Serg Koren wrote:

> A real problem (again related to this list) is that to a newbie,
Squeak
> is a moving target.  There are changesets, and fileins, and
enhancements
> and so on released every day on this list and to corporate types this
> sounds like "Squeak is undone and unstable, why should I bet on
> something that is never done...  I want to make money, not spend time
> updating my software."

But if you aren't on the list, you don't have to even deal with the
changes. 
The current version (3.0) is plenty stable for real work. As was 2.8.

Sure, people are improving it day by day. It's just that most of that 
activity is happening on the list where it is semi-public.

Compare this situation to a similar situation in the Linux world: if I
were 
deploying a server right now, I'd use a 2.4 kernel. If I were developing

Linux itself, I'd be concerned with the 2.5 branch.

But, as far as I can tell, Squeak Central is not much interested in
promoting 
Squeak as a corporate replacement for Java. They have their own uses for

Squeak. Some people are interested in using Squeak to deploy
applications 
(and some have); the discussion around "Stable Squeak" reflected their 
concerns. The modules system (which is not yet ready for the world at
large) 
is a response (in part) to their concerns.

-- 
Ned Konz
currently: Stanwood, WA
email:     ned at bike-nomad.com
homepage:  http://bike-nomad.com